Are flares an anachronism in today's world?

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Totally support and agree with Vitalman ....

As to Lemains comment about use on specialist Seismic Vsls - what I was illustrating was the effectiveness of the flare - not where it was being used or origin.

For me - I don't care if I'm on a 1000 ton Seismic, 100,000 ton tanker, 3 ton yacht - flares, electronic aids, whatever to save my ar*e ......

Why reduce what you have ? That's like saying well we have air-bags now - we can scrap seat-belts ?? and anyway I rarely have people in the rear seats - so we can cut them out anyway .... You may think its a bad comparison - but IMHO - its very similar.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Yes flares are an anachronism, as are drainpipes and blue suede shoes. But I will keep mine till they come back into fashion.

By the way, if I ever end up up the creek having lost the paddle I would want as many alternatives as possible.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

We now carry the minimum number of flares being just the numbers required by Special Regs Cat 1 MINUS the white handhelds (and I wonder about the reds as well as they are of similar construction). We no longer hold onto old flares to increase the numbers. I do think they are a bit of an anachronism for well fitted boats.

We carry a masthead strobe, powerful spreader lights which light up the sails from lower spreaders down, "zillion" candle power lamp, DSC VHF, DSC SSB and a 406 EPIRB as well as having 2 independant power supplies for them. Personally, I think that is sufficient in itself.

But for less well equipped vessels flares are a less reliable, but necessary for them, substitute.

John
 
Strobes and LEDs

Interesting point above by KelleysEye.

Leaving the legalities aside, here is what our research has shown us about LEDs as a strobe:

First, using xenon discharge tube mandates a strobing light, basically a lightning bolt in a tube. A very intense light, and because of the short 'on' duration, very low power draw.

An LED does not have to wait for a capacitor to recharge, thus its period can be fixed to whatever the desired to be. There is an 'issue' with the rise and fall time of the light not being as sharp as that of a xenon tube. (the inherent capacitance in the diode precludes a really sharp rise time, although better than that of a filament).

However, because of the LED being 'pulsed', you can over-drive the LED like crazy to give a range (per COLREG calculation methods) of on the order of 4nm.

Something that is 'cute' is since the period of the light is set by the designer, it can be an occulting light instead of strobing.

During our tests, we found that we had to cover the light otherwise anybody trying to work near it would have their attention pulled to it like a moth to a candle. In addition, it was far easier to get a bearing on the occulting light than on a strobing light.

At any rate, unless operating a submarine, a strobe is illegal, but an occulting light is not specifically addressed.

Comments?
Best regards,
Michael
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Yes, I agree that your inventory of safety gear makes failure to make an effective distress alarm almost impossible. Indeed, the weak link in your chain is your MRCC rather than your kit! From some previous posts, it seems that it might not be generally realised that EPIRBs contain their own power supplies, with lithium batteries that last from five to ten years (in the 'off' condition of course!).

I am interested in the subject of strobes. Surely we are all agreed that they are the most visible possible light at night and all civilian aircraft are fitted with them. A fair question is why, "if they are good in the air, why not at sea?". Before I get a ton of flak and a barrow load of hate-mail, I am not saying that's my personal view /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif but it is a valid question that needs to be answered rationally.

For myself, on the few occasions I have seen strobes at sea I have nearly jumped out of my skin and my reaction to their general round the clock use is that I would hate to see that happen. But why? If they were made legal, what harm would strobes do, even if used round the clock? I'm not sure that I have a good answer against and the 'yes' brigade can claim quite correctly that strobes will make vessels far more visible in all conditions, surely a safety aid?
 
Re: Strobes and LEDs

I've looked carefully at your website and seem to be missing the point. Are you presently selling 'flashing' LED lamps as running lights? From your post, I was not clear whether the strobe or occulting fundamental frequencies are invisible - i.e. >50Hz or visible <10Hz. In your post you are talking about over-driving the LEDs - presumably you are pulsing them with a prf >50Hz? But then you talk about the visible differences between occulting and strobe lights. Can you explain?
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Strobes are specifically provided for in the USA Inland ColRegs as long as flash at 120 flash per minute (so not so easily confused with navaids which generally flash at half that).

While peeps say strobes are illegal the ColRegs (unless amended by local waters legislation) only say their use to be avoided (but that generally interpreted of being of some force) and in any event is no problem using them in a SAR circumstance.

We only carry a strobe for SAR and so apart from occasional tests in the marina has never been used (yet /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). I don't think I would like to see them widely used as a matter of course as are very attention grabbing things (the powerful ones anyway) and quite a bit different to their use in the skies (sky is a volume not a 2D surface, less chance of confusion, planes keep greater distances apart from each other (3 miles separation say if same flight level), etc).

John
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

A funny story about strobe lights on aircraft. some years back the regs were virtually identical to boat regs. ie port stabrboard steady red and green and white stern light. Plus they required a flashing red (rotating) all round light. Then aircraft started arriving from US with the strobe white position lights. There was a period of non compliance turning a blind eye and eventually the regs were changed. We might expect col regs to catch up some time. Certainly the xenon gas discharge light makes powerfull flash that gets attention.
This is the kind of light that is generally called a strobe light. (but with language things can vary rapidly) I see many night scuba divers around my mooring each night carrying a small strobe light on the top of the tank. You can see em from quite a distance.

Using LEDs they can be over driven the limitation being on total heat dissipation. so 25% on time permits 4 times overdrive of current. 4 times the brightness for 1/4 the time. So to set up a LED flasher in occulting mode with say a 25% off period will only allow you to increase brightness by 25% ie not much. The only advantage being in getting attention.

As for flares . Here in West Oz we are required by law to carry 2 smoke flares and 2 h/h flares for inshore boating off the coast. To go beyond 3Nm you must have 2 smoke and 2 parachute flares plus marine radio. Beyond 10NM you must have EPIRB as well. (Not to mention soon to be implemented boat drivers licence. for anywhere)

But I do wonder if flares may one day be an anachronism. They are expensive short lived and very dangerous devices. I think I would be afraid to let off a parachute type but I do carry them. olewill
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Hi,

If we offered a strobe/occulting unit for sale, in my mind at least, it would violate the spirit of a free board-no one likes spam, and I wouldn't post. But, I have been an ocean sailor for 25 years and I thought I'd share the results of some of my research, even if it doesn't have any personal financial gain. It's not as if I mind money, its just not appropo here.

The timing range that we found to be most attention grabbing was in the order of 50hz with a 2/3 on, 1/3 off period. I think if you were prone to fits, this would induce one. It's as if you can't NOT look at it, compared to a strobe, which is easy to tune out.

Over-driving is the amount of current that you can feed to the LED. The less continuous current thru an LED, the longer the device lasts (or anything, actually). You can trade off driving the device with more current if it has time to 'cool down'. It's not exactly linear, but you can think of it as an average thru the device.

Best regards and sorry for the confusion.
Michael
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Nov 5th?
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Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

[ QUOTE ]

But I do wonder if flares may one day be an anachronism. They are expensive short lived and very dangerous devices. I think I would be afraid to let off a parachute type but I do carry them. olewill

[/ QUOTE ]

I've let off a few at RYA organised demos and in the Bequai on New Years Eve (like everyone else does, in case you were wondering). I found the experience very useful and illuminating (he-he). When Mrs_E let her first flare off she wasn't holding the flare very carefully and it shot off parallel to the sea embedding itself in a hillside, fortunately with no damage.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Can you cite references

1 for the effects of occulting lights on e.g. epileptic fits, please ? I have an understanding that it's flashing lights which can trigger.

2 for the great perceptibility of occulting lights over flashing lights ? The latter seem to be the norm in the emergency services.

thanks
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

I rather doubt that a 50Hz fundamental would induce fitting as it is the mains line frequency and all lights (and TVs) flicker at that, anyway. ISTR that 7Hz and 11Hz are special frequencies in terms of notice-ability and possibly fitting.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

True - but TVs are 25/50 Hz and they don't seem to cause fitting - at least, not due to the flicker frequency /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

As someone that has rescued the odd person I can only offer the following observations.

1. An orange smoke flare - even a h/held - lets off a considerable amount of smoke and this hangs as a "pall" and can be seen from some distance. Yes the SAR helicopter may ask you to fire one off for surface wind speed & indent, but RNLI crews may also ask you to fire one so that the smoke pall can be seen.

2. High powered torches are fine (and very good) but they don't "flicker" like a white flare - with all the best will in the world, pointing a torch at a L/B from a couple of miles away with your boat bouncing up and down just means the L/B crew may get to see a powerful light every now and then, but with a white flare you get a "glow" that can be seen even if the flare is not directly visible, this "glow" works even better with a low cloud base!

As some posters have already said, the best method is to have as many "layers" of safety available as possible, DSC radios, EPIRB's, PLB's, Flares, H/helds, torches. L/rafts, strobes on L/jackets etc. Even a simple thing like a CG66 will all help when it comes to a resuce situation.

So in answer to the original post - yes IMHO flares are very important, the amount carried depends on the cruising area and your distance from land.

Peter.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Sorry, I can't get my mind round this: a 50 Hz mains power supply produces a 100 Hz flicker ? Can someone explain in simple terms or with a web site reference please ?
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

It's good to have your contribution as someone who has actually done the rescuing.

The purpose of the flares, as you have described it, is location very close up. A mile or three. Have you had experience of SARTs as an alternative to flares, or as well as flares? In theory, the SART should be much more useful to the LB and the Helicopter as they can be seen in any weather, the signal does not decay and it does not flicker or drift.

As for having the maximum number of layers possible, surely the point is that it is impossible for small yachts to carry everything for reasons of economy and space. The question we are raising here - and it is a question - is whether technological improvements have taken us to the point where fewer flares are needed.

I think you are saying that we should continue to carry the same flare kits despite new technology. But you don't mention the SART which could be described as an 'electronic flare' and maybe the way forward?
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

He is correct. In 50Hz circuits the voltage reverses 50 times a second but it goes through zero 100 times a second. The fluorescent tube or filament therefore is modulated with a 100Hz flicker. It was my fault for including lamps in the 50Hz list of equipment in the first place, sorry. TVs have a frame frequency of 25Hz but they refreshed - interlaced - at 25Hz giving the effect of 50Hz, i.e. flicker-free. 25Hz is about the limit of flicker.

In issue we have discussed here recently is when moving things, especially wheels, belts, cogs, etc. are viewed under lights. The stroboscopic effect of flicker can make these things seem stationery.
 
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