Are catermerans safe enough to sail the Solent?

Re: ???...

Hi,

> I thought that we were talking about capsize and it's aftermath not holing.<

*You* were talking about safety and *I* have been discussing the wider safety issues. Steve, you raise another couple of interesting points. You talk about being in home waters. The delivery crew weren't in home waters. They set sail in an unfamiliar boat in unfamiliar waters in a force 6 with a force 7 forecast. I have also heard it rumoured that their combined experience sailing cats is the same as yours - but I don't know that for a fact.

Would you, despite your thousands of miles of experience gained over many years, set off under those circumstances? An unknown boat of a totally different type than you are used to? If I set sail in your boat after sailing cats and I put it aground on the Bramble bank would you allow me to blame the boat for it's excessive draft? (several mono sailors do put their boat aground on the Bramble every year but lets not go there.)

> I think that I would sooner be in a well sealed single tube with a big weight suspended on the bottom than on a platform which is almost equally stable inverted as RWU.<

Ummm.... you probably would be safe, assuming that you weren't rolled and that you didn't lose your keel. Generally a cat, being lighter and with the centerboards up, will dance away from breaking waves a take less damage. I wouldn't want to be in that situation. If I were I'd rather trust to my raft than your keel. When did you last renew your keel bolts? Or have them x-rayed? What happens to it when a wave slams against you? Will it take the strain or come off? Will your rig survive a roll? What damage will it do if it doesn't?

There are a lot of mono's that don't survive a roll. There are a fair number of monos that are perfectly stable inverted. Horse for course.

Cats in general have an enviable safety record and I'd be pretty certain that mile per mile monos desert their crew to die more often than multihulls, but, again, I don't know that. I just haven't hear of a multi (other than extreme racing machines) sinking. Maybe I'm not listening in the right quarters.

What I do know is that in the aftermath of the Fastnet disaster the chances of surviving in a liferaft were much less than those of the crew who stayed with their boat. Since a multi floats either way up then staying with it is less of a problem.

Regards



Ian


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Re: ???...

It is easy to show mathematically that the energy transfer required to capsize a given catamaran is significantly greater than that needed for a similar length mono - its the result of having most of the mass in two widely (by mono standard) spaced hulls. However, that is far from being the whole issue - things like keel depth and the effect of wind affect the issue with perhaps the greates question being the experience of the crew. Cats cannot be left to sail themselves as some old style monos can

I sail a Prout cat. I can honestly say that I have never felt the slightest bit worried about capsize, but since it can happen so quickly it may be that I was nearer than I realised. I am convinced that it is safer in other respects. You're way less likely to go overboard from the steady deck of a cat than the heeling and bucking deck of a mono. You're much less likely to make silly mistakes in a boat which tires far less, and where you can continue to cook in bad weather.

Maybe I am taking a bit more of a risk, just as I do when I ride my motorbike rather than take the bus. I would rather have the extra space in a cat, the extra speed and above all, the extra ride comfort, trusting to luck, skill , unsinkability and sensible safety precautions to save my bacon if it ever goes wrong. Thereafter, its the insurance companies' problem.

PS Do you realise that the ballasted mono sailing vessel is virtually the only common vessel that does (or at least shouls) return upright after inversion?

.

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At the risk of repeating myself.

I'll say it again. F2 wasn't sunk because of the hole left by the rudder. It was scuttled by removing the hoses from the sea cocks. It was abandoned because the two novices sailing it couldn't figure out how to stay afloat and steer for a couple of thousand miles.

I've no axe to grind here regarding the number of hulls, I'm just astonished that views are so polarised. Yes, monos and multis can capsize. The odds are high in both cases that a mono will recover and will stay afloat in a somewhat sailable state, and that the multi will remain base over apex, stable but not under command. Similarly, if a mono springs a leak or sustains hull damage it has less chance of getting you home than a multi in a similar condition.

You pays yer money and you makes yer choice, and there's no need for anyone to slag off one type of boat or the other.

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Aren\'t you forgetting...

>Do you realise that the ballasted mono sailing vessel is virtually the only common vessel that does (or at least shouls) return upright after inversion?<

Lifeboats?

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Re: Aren\'t you forgetting...

modern lifeboats only come back up if all her sea doors are closed. This is not generally possible if the crew are working on deck or moving casualties. I hope it won't be the case, but there is a very big chance of a modern lifeboat sinking if she rolls.

Modern lifeboats carry liferafts, this was never considered in the older double ended designs. They also have teeny rudders, next to useless if she loses propulsion.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/Honda_00.html>Honda Formula 4-Stroke racing</A>
 
Is this going anywhere

Anyway I digress, there will always be a difference of opinion on this subject, and I often wonder why I have an urge as do other multi-hullers to try to convince multi haters that they are actually ok, and they do have great benefits.

Each to their own, I will continue sailing mine, right up to the beach for a bbq, while you pay for your deepwater births.

I like all boats and enjoy the challenge each gives, I would never poo poo a whole class just because of illfounded predjudice. Difference is a good thing, otherwise we would all be driving VW beetles or Trabants <s>.

I don't think there will be an answer to this, but I would like to know how many monohulls have capsized this year or sunk, because I think the press is getting a little OTT on multihulls.

It is similar to the Dangerous Dogs act, the press always blame bull terriers, I worked in rescue for 2 years, none of the mainstream reported cases of dog attacks were in fact by staffies or pits, all cross breeds. The press was writing what people expected to hear, and people make their ill founded predjudices.

Does anyone know how many monohulls under UK flag have foundered this year?

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/Honda_00.html>Honda Formula 4-Stroke racing</A>
 
Re: Is this going anywhere

>> I often wonder why I have an urge as do other multi-hullers to try to convince multi haters that they are actually ok, and they do have great benefits. <<

You could try being a stinkie for a while, and have the united dislike of all raggies, no matter how many hulls ;)


<hr width=100% size=1>Err, let me know if Depsol enters the forum, I'll go and hide
 
Tut Tut Steve! Still winding people up I see. A few years ago it was Blue Ensigns I seem to remember and now it is cats! But please do keep it up. This forum is in danger of becoming very dull. Occasionally it needs a good punch-up to remind people that it is supposed to be a virtual club bar.

<hr width=100% size=1>Sail the Se7en seas...
 
How many monos have foundered?

No idea, but a fair few.

Bear in mind though that there are probably 50 monos to every multi, so you'd need to apply that factor if you were trying to do a comparison.

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Stinkies

Hi,

I don't hate stinkies - I do hate the prats that take great delight in roaring past at planing speed (sometimes in convoy) at close range and then watch with glee as the raggie gets pounded by their wash, the spinnaker collapses and gets wrapped round the forestay or the main comes crashing across and belts some poor sod across the back of the head.

I respect motobo drivers that keep to a sensible speed in confined waters, recognise that a raggie doesn't have the same options as they do and act accordingly and generally behave in a decent and seamanlike fashion towards other water users.

My real pet hate is the committee that decides to start a race of a dingy fleet in the middle of the main channel in a small harbour and then protests to the yachts coming through that they are interfering with the race! There isn't any reason for it and the confusion it causes is beyond all common sense, especially as few of the racers realise that they have to give way to a yacht confined to the channel by reason of it's draft or other traffic.

But then again, that's just my personal bugbear.

Regards



Ian

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Common design....

They were both wide "saucers" again like Kingfisher 1 built to plane in the right conditions at the expense of seaworthiness.

I will repeat though that for a vessel to capsize just where this one did, caused by the "wall of water" chucking a keel into the air and then the wind taking over to flip the lot in six seconds (RNLI appraisal on the spot) can hardly instill confidence in anyone.

The grab bag couldn't be deployed so maybe cat sailors should look to carrying personal alerting devices on their person as a matter of course?

Steve Cronin

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I thought you were dead!

Sorry, just my sense of humour!

So how's life in the limited genepool regions of the realm. I see that they are closing down the old RCIYC in StPP. Another winebar going in no doubt.

As to stirring it on cats far from it. Charging about in a Dart or (age showing) a Shearwater is exhilerating but some of the designs around frighten me as well as the overall concept for a cruising boat does. Then there's the anti-social berthing on public quays.

Blue Ensigns? Well the air of superiority still exudes don't you think?

Dull forum? Well when I posted similar about "Cats" on a certain lady journalist's forum the daft sids started talking about tabbys, persians and how to poison them!

Steve cronin

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Re: Common design....

I really do find this really surprising and what I've wondered is ... do short handed cat sailors use autopilots cos presumably if they do they are at risk if a squall or gust hits them at the wong time .. ie just gone to the heads!! Do cat sailors risk it or reef before going?

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Re: Stinkies

Actually you will find that the wash created by a planing boat at top speed is usually considerably less than at high displacement speed - there's less hull in the water. I agree however that driving too close to other boats and doing so with glee is totally stupid.

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Re: Stinkies

You're wasting you're time. If they think stinkies on the whole make an effort to avoid the Raggies, then they are already believers. If they think stinkies are out to sink them, or swamp them with wash, then there is nothing to be said.

F'd off with this whole stinkies v raggies debate ..it's complete bollocks apart from a few unusual instances.


My boat name is Iditarod, I'm based out of Lymington. I can exceed 44knts. If you see me making too much wash in any port, haven or estuary in the south coast, report me.On the other hand, if you see me inside port or estuary speed limits, report that too. Even if little raggies are tacking in front of me, I'll make allowances.

Out in the Solent, I'll usuallly be seen giving a wide berth, so get the binos out so you can report me.

I'll put the SSR number on this weekend, so that gives you another chance to identify me

Do I sound pissed off? Yeep

B

I'm putting myself on the line. Any raggie that has occassion to think I've upset them can PM me.Boat name is Iditarod.






<hr width=100% size=1>Err, let me know if Depsol enters the forum, I'll go and hide
 
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