Are catermerans safe enough to sail the Solent?

[steve_cronin]

The rather disturbing account by a well experienced crew in very moderate weather with a conservative amount of sail up in the latest YM might lead you to think not. If the Iroquois can't stand up to <22kts of wind and an IoW ferry wash, would YOU venture out of your depth in one?

Steve Cronin

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[jimi]

Personally I would doubt there would be enough wash from an IOW ferry to cause what was described. The only time I've seen really bad wash was when a car carrier came hammering down the north channel of the brambles at c. 20 knots and caused an 8 foot vertical wall of water. I in fact radioed traffic control to complain but was told that it was outside their area of responsibility. I wondered if it were more something like that.

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[steve_cronin]

EVEN SO.....

I know that my monohull (& 99% of others) would just take it in their stride so I must paraphrase Ralph Nader by posing, about cats. the rhetorical question:-

"Unsafe in any Sea"?

Steve Cronin

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[snowleopard]

Re: EVEN SO.....

just read the article about the sinking of F2 in last year's ARC. any type of boat which sinks just because it has a hole in the bottom can't be considered safe under any circumstances. obviously monohulls are dangerous unless fitted with sufficient permanent buovancy to keep them afloat when flooded.

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: EVEN SO.....

F2 - not sunk, scuttled.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[steve_cronin]

Sorry but I don\'t see your arguement...

This cat wasn't holed. It just fell over.

Using your analogy, it can be argued that aircraft are dangerous because they fall out of the sky when a wing comes off!

This "Iriquois" cat is "Unsafe in ANY Sea" it appears and I'm not sure that I would feel safe in a big sea in ANY twin hulled sailing boat.

Steve Cronin

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[ThomasHome]

Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

Kingfisher 2 managed to get pretty far before the mast snapped and I'm fairly certain that it came accross some bigger seas than the wash from a ferry would cause.

You can't knock an entire form of sailing because of one incident, where the details are a little vague and there may have been other problems that helped cause the capsize. If all cats went over that easily then surley the builders would stop making them and the insurers would refuse to cover them.

Boats sink, skiers break legs, skydivers die, planes crash, cats can capsize, but none of the formentioned happen every day and when they do people still manage to sail, ski ect.

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[steve_cronin]

Re: Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

Yes and so did ENZA/RoyalSunAlliance before hers broke and then there was Team Philips --oops!

Cat sailing IS riskier than monohull and there are relatively safe cats (tris are better) but something that stays upside down worries me!

Steve Cronin

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[Robin2]

Re: Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

I have to disagree - based on what I have read, rather than personal experience.

Also based on logic.

Monohulls get knocked down by waves, not by wind.

Cats, on the other hand get knocked down by wind if they are carrying too much sail. They are a lot less likely to be knocked down by waves because they do not lean to the extreme angles of monohulls.

Finally, cats float after the accident - unlike monohulls.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Robin2 on 09/07/2003 18:00 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[ThomasHome]

Re: Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

... and I'm sure there are plenty of examples of mono hulls that have met their fate over the years.

I've not sailed a big cat, but owned a small fast beach cat for a few years, at my local club I found many of the dinghy sailors looked down their noses at the cat sailors - does this happen with large boats too?


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[Peppermint]

Re: History would show

that this 1960's design of cruising cat has a good safety record. The last time one was upside down in the Solent I understand it was racing flat out. The design was quite popular, I don't know how many they knock out but it was more than a few, and cruised far and wide. A few crossed oceans or raced without incident. The designers have a good reputation as do the builders.

So when looking at why a boat of this type falls over in the Solent I'd be considering whether it had been modified, the multihull experience of the crew and the conditions at the time.

I wouldn't be looking at the design or the breed. Sailing boats get into difficulties for a variety of different reasons. The last time I was aground for example a 27ft multihull sailed around me twice to check we were OK. If my rudder is damaged it's a bit tricky Cats have two ditto with engines very often.

I've not sailed a cat in big seas but I'm looking forward to trying it.

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[snowleopard]

Re: Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

yes indeed, there are always those who look down their noses at anyone who sails something different to themselves.

we've had a few threads along these lines over the years. most of those who express the most extreme views do so from prejudice rather than experience so don't need to be taken seriously.

having crossed the atlantic on one, two and three hulls, i'm not going to let a single incident in very unclear circumstances worry me too much!

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Here we go again

Monohulls are obviously better than cats
Cats are better than monohulls
monohulls are be.............

yada yada

It's ok to be different........really it is

Why are people so afraid of things they do not understand.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/Honda_00.html>Honda Formula 4-Stroke racing</A>

 

[timevans2000]

Re: Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

It always makes me laugh that somebody who quite obviously knows very little about what he talking about quite happy to show his ignorance in public. I normally like to get educated on the subject prior arguing. It always makes for a far better debate and you dont look quite so ignorant.

Cant even be bothered to enter the cats vs mono debate. I will just keep sailing mu cat upright

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[steve_cronin]

Re: Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

Pompous git!

What gives you the right to state that I don't know what i'm talking about?

Two cigar tubes held apart by two lollypop sticks will float whichever way the might of the oceans decides. THAT is basic physics matey. Sail your deathtrap if you wish but you'll never catch ME offshore in one in any sort of a blow. Relying on quick release sheets and masthead floats gives great caue for alarm. If my monohull was inverted (NOT a saucer or flimsy keeled prototype) it's very nature would right it. Yours would need external forces.

Steve Cronin

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[extravert]

Every boat design is a compromise between seaworthiness, performance and comfort. You can have lots of only one, not all three. We each choose our mix for our own requirements, and should sail appropriately.

I respect that a Bavaria or Twister owner has chosen that type of boat for his own requirements, but those needs are different from mine. So why are performance multihulls so often criticised by those that have different boats. No one is forcing you to have one, but why can't you accept that there are different sailors to you, and their sailing is completely different from yours? Therefore they have completely different boats.

How boring would it be if all boats (cars, houses, dogs...) were the same?

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[Two_Hapence]

As an Iroq driver.....

Hi,

I've sailed my Iroquois Mk IIa cat in the solent, I've also done a channel crossing in a force 9 (The met office were forecasting a 4 possibly 5) and I haven't (yet) capsized. Two years ago I sailed from The Ellbe back to the Solent in varying conditions. Other owners have achieved far more than I have and in much worse conditions.

With over three hundred Iroquois cats built and an average age of about thirty years they have suffered from comparitively few mishaps over an impressive cumulative mileage.

I doubt we will ever know why Antares went over but I can tell you she has put in a lot of miles with various owners and even when she did tip she stayed afloat providing her crew with a raft. Antares carries a big RIB in davits high up over the stern and the boom has been lengthened to act as a crane. Did this extra weight have an effect? It would appear that the centreboards were down and the manufacturers instructions and most catamaran sailing instructions suggest that the lee centreboard should be up in any sort of weather, otherwise the boat can easily trip over the lee centreboard and, as Claire Toohey can testify, events after that happen very very fast.

Were the crew caught out by the fact that she was leaning over by only a few degrees, being used to the significant heel of a monhull and therefore were caught unawares? Did the helmsman luff into a gust of wind or steer the wrong way into the wave? From advice published on the Iroquois Owners website, based on information supplied by the builder: - In winds gusting at up to 25 knots the boat should have 2 reefs in the main and about half the genoa rolled away when close hauled or close reaching. In the article Claire states that they were sailing at 55 degrees to the wind and that the breeze was 22 knots. Presumably the gusts were slightly higher. With two rolls in the genoa and two reefs in the main the boat wasn't necessarily "conservatively canvassed."

A cat is a totally different creature from a monohull and needs to be treated differently. Even if the worst happens and she capsizes or is seriously holed she will stay afloat and give her crew the benefit of a large raft to stay with. When a monohull gets holed it usually sinks, very rapidly and I am sure no one would dispute that they can capsize and stay inverted too.

I'd be very interested to know if any of the crew of Antares had previously sailed or skippered a cruising cat and whether they would consider stepping on a cat again. I congratulate them on their personal preparedness before the event and the clear thinking and will to survive after the incident.

Regards



Ian

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[timevans2000]

QED

Ha, Ha Ha. Job done. Now the bigoted monohull sailor is upset. Why cant you accept that other people who do things different to yourself aren't fools. You stick to you heavy weight plodder you ignoramus, if that's what turns you on. (not that I have anything against heavy weight monohulls)

Just one thought though, when it is rougher than even your boat can stand, you will be on the bottom of the sea and I will only be upside down

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[Twister_Ken]

360 or 180

Dear Time Vans

Declaring myself neutral, let me just state that when monohulls sink it usually because they are holed in a fairly serious way, not because they have capsized which, unless they are extremely extreme or the keel has fallen off, is not a state they stay in for very long. I accept that a serious hole in a mutlihull is much less likely to lead to Davy Jones.

In my case, given the option between a monohull 360 or a multihull 180, I know which I would choose, but each to his or her own.

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[Two_Hapence]

Re: Didn\'t K\'fisher 2 have 2 hulls?

Hi,

Hardly fair, Steve. Your monhull stays upright (basic physics remember) because you have a dirty great weight slung underneath. In the event that you get a hole in your boat that weight will drag your boat down in very short order. To survive you will need to get into your liferaft, assuming that it actually works, and you are then in a not very stable wobbly rubber monohull.

My cat will float even if you rip the bottom out of one of the hulls, and you so rightly point out, two cigar tubes joined by a lolipop stick will continue to float, whatever way up it is.

If your boat capsizes for whatever reason it can pass the angle of vanishing stability and then it will stay capsized - with several tonnes of lead or cast iron trying to bash it's way through the floor (that keel of yours.)

I don't wish either event on you and I would imagine that you'd be sane enough to avoid those situations. Sometime you might get caught out, as happened to Antares.

Cats and Monohulls are different and I'm perfectly happy for you not to step onto a cat. I'm also quite content to stay clear of monohulls as I find the motion unpleasant, they are short of space on deck, in the cockpit and below, they need much more sail area length for length and therefore bigger winches and more effort to sail them, and I think they are intinsically unsafe as they are usually bereft of any kind of buoyancy once holed.

But then, I've sailed thousands of miles in monos and cats and have a fair amount of experience on which to base my judgements.

Regards


Ian

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