April 2019 YM: Red to white diesel dilution

[westhinder]

I don't know what the deal is that has been negotiated but yet to be accepted by our parliament, nor do I know how the EU treats non EU yachts that have marked fuel in the tanks. I recall that it is only to do with EU pleasure vessels, hence it will not be applicable to yachts arriving from outside the EU with marked diesel, unless it falls under trade agreements i.e. if Canada prohibits marked fuel in pleasure yachts, then it could be reciprocated in the EU agreement.

Provided your Parliament accepts a deal, nothing changes until the end of 2020, the transition period, which means that all EU rules continue to apply fully to UK yachts. So red diesel is not legal for the propulsion of yachts, as confirmed by the EU Court of Justice.
During the transition period a deal will be hammered out about how visiting yachts both UK yachts in European waters and European yachts in UK waters, will be treated.
If your Parliament does not approve a deal, UK yachts in EU waters will be treated as any other non-EU yacht and red diesel will still not be accepted. One hopes that after a no-deal a deal can be reached in the future, but I do not expect that to be a quick affair. And it is most likely that red diesel will still not be acceptable for UK yachts.
UK cars visiting Europe will be expected to follow EU rules of the road and associated regulations, why not yachts?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Westhinder, does the EU penalise yachts from outside the EU who visit and have marked fuel in their tanks?

 

[Mistroma]

Westhinder, does the EU penalise yachts from outside the EU who visit and have marked fuel in their tanks?

I seem to remember a super-yacht from US running into problems several years ago because they'd arrived with coloured fuel in their tanks. I think it might have been a German port, not one in Holland. I am pretty certain it was reported here and I did read another report elsewhere at the time. I was correct, and found a link here just after posting.

The post DaydreamBeliever quoted makes sense regarding OPs mention of a dilution ratio of at least 75
as 75 x 0.12 = 9. Perhaps that's where YM got their information.

I was reading the directive yesterday, together with all the supporting documentation. The standard laboratory test for the red diesel marker has a defined cut-off point of 0.12mg per litre of fuel – below that, it is regarded as unreliable. The marking rules specify a maximum level of 9mg per litre at the pump.

It continues with 3-4 refills from 10% to 100% and even that seems excessive if 0.12mg is the reliable detection limit. The level is around 0.01 - 0.001 mg/litre after 2-3 re-fills (allowing for residual fuel in lines & filters each re-fill).

So, if you have a 100 litre tank, you should be safe with anything under 12mg of marker in it. That translates to a bit more than a litre of marked fuel at the maximum marking dosage. So, if you run your 100 litre tank down to about 10 litres, then part fill it with white and repeat three or four times before completely filling with white, you should be ok.

It looks as if someone worked out the the original dilution factor of 75 as the absolute limit and that 2 re-fills would get there. Then they doubled it just to be safe, got 4 fills and came up with 3-4 re-fills as a reasonable target.

Perhaps the latest "researcher" saw 3-4 refills and simply thought "I'd better increase that a bit just to be safe, 6 sounds about right". I think we can expect another article in 4-5 years time, suggesting 12 re-fills. . Of course red diesel might not be an issue by then.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I seem to remember a super-yacht from US running into problems several years ago because they'd arrived with coloured fuel in their tanks. I think it might have been a German port, not one in Holland. I am pretty certain it was reported here and I did read another report elsewhere at the time. I was correct, and found a link here just after posting.

The article in your link suggests that the officers acted illegal and were ignorant of a treaty that is applicable to all of the EU: -

Rossi cited Article 4 of the Convention of Istanbul, a continent-wide agreement that says that fuel in the normal tanks as a means of transport shall be admitted into the European Union without payment of import duties and taxes.
Read more at https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/germany-fines-red-diesel-yachtsmen-3896#cjslYLCsdvEDOekS.99

Therefore, if Rossi is correct, Westhinder is wrong, because, technically foreign yachts with marked fuel bought outside the EU should not be taxed or charged duty.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If your Parliament does not approve a deal, UK yachts in EU waters will be treated as any other non-EU yacht and red diesel will still not be accepted.

Are you saying, then, that red diesel is not permitted in a yacht which has come straight from Canada, where wikipedia suggests that marine fuel is dyed red? How about non CE-marked electronics in a Japanese ship?

UK cars visiting Europe will be expected to follow EU rules of the road and associated regulations, why not yachts?

Actually, UK cars visiting the rest of Europe - and the other way round - are exempt from many regulations which apply to locally registered cars. For example, German registered cars have to carry a first aid kit in Germany, but visiting cars don't. Similarly Belgian-registered cars have to carry a fire extinguisher in Belgium but visiting cars don't.

As for "EU rules of the road" ... In Germany I have to give way to a car approaching from the right in a side street (at an unmarked junction) but in France I don't.

 

[lw395]

The article in your link suggests that the officers acted illegal and were ignorant of a treaty that is applicable to all of the EU: -



Therefore, if Rossi is correct, Westhinder is wrong, because, technically foreign yachts with marked fuel bought outside the EU should not be taxed or charged duty.

There still seems to be confusion here between 'red diesel', 'marked diesel' and EU marked diesel.
IF you buy red diesel outside the EU, it shouldn't contain the euromarker.
The offense is not having 'red diesel' in your tank, it's having euromarker in your tank.
The chemical test is for euromarker, not red-ness.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Are you saying, then, that red diesel is not permitted in a yacht which has come straight from Canada, where wikipedia suggests that marine fuel is dyed red? How about non CE-marked electronics in a Japanese ship?

I'm not sure why you are concatenating the two issues? The legislation on marked fuel is quite specific and clear (at least in Belgium which seems the most pertinent example at the moment).

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm not sure why you are concatenating the two issues? The legislation on marked fuel is quite specific and clear (at least in Belgium which seems the most pertinent example at the moment).

The legislation on CE markings is also quite specific, and I am interested in knowing whether these rules apply only to EU boats (in which case we are golden when we arrive in Zeebrugge in search of food, medicine and asylum next month, or whether they apply to all visiting vessels.

From the treaty reference above it sound as if we should be able to arrive with diesel as red as we like.

 

[awol]

As for "EU rules of the road" ... In Germany I have to give way to a car approaching from the right in a side street (at an unmarked junction) but in France I don't.

L’article R.415-5 du Code de la route définit plus particulièrement le refus de priorité à droite. Ainsi, lorsque deux conducteurs abordent une intersection par des routes différentes, le conducteur venant de la gauche est tenu de céder le passage à l'autre conducteur.

 

[JumbleDuck]

L’article R.415-5 du Code de la route définit plus particulièrement le refus de priorité à droite. Ainsi, lorsque deux conducteurs abordent une intersection par des routes différentes, le conducteur venant de la gauche est tenu de céder le passage à l'autre conducteur.

Oops. Luckily I don't drive in France much. OK, Belgium.

 

[NormanS]

In most EU countries drivers even drive on the wrong side of the road!

 

[lw395]

The legislation on CE markings is also quite specific, and I am interested in knowing whether these rules apply only to EU boats (in which case we are golden when we arrive in Zeebrugge in search of food, medicine and asylum next month, or whether they apply to all visiting vessels.

From the treaty reference above it sound as if we should be able to arrive with diesel as red as we like.

As red as you like, provided it doesn't have Euromarker in it.
I doubt the UK will stop marking its diesel with euromarker any time soon though.
And existing stocks will be euromarked.
The regulations on CE marking are mostly about selling things.
There are issues with some things like VHF transmitters where a lack type approval could make it illegal to use. If it doesn't have the 'international channel set, just the US.

 

[westhinder]

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Quote Originally Posted by Mistroma
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I seem to remember a super-yacht from US running into problems several years ago because they'd arrived with coloured fuel in their tanks. I think it might have been a German port, not one in Holland. I am pretty certain it was reported here and I did read another report elsewhere at the time. I was correct, and found a link here just after posting.
The article in your link suggests that the officers acted illegal and were ignorant of a treaty that is applicable to all of the EU: -

Rossi cited Article 4 of the Convention of Istanbul, a continent-wide agreement that says that fuel in the normal tanks as a means of transport shall be admitted into the European Union without payment of import duties and taxes.
Read more at https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news...LCsdvEDOekS.99
Therefore, if Rossi is correct, Westhinder is wrong, because, technically foreign yachts with marked fuel bought outside the EU should not be taxed or charged duty.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ite-diesel-dilution/page3#ds6se2f4AVvCx3Tv.99.

I remembered the same case of the American superyacht in Germany.
It is indeed a matter of having Euromarker in your tanks. As long as red diesel sold in the UK contains Euromarker, it will be illegal in EU

 

[westhinder]

image: http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/ybw/misc/quote_icon.png
Quote Originally Posted by awol
image: http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/ybw/buttons/viewpost-right.png
View Post
L’article R.415-5 du Code de la route définit plus particulièrement le refus de priorité à droite. Ainsi, lorsque deux conducteurs abordent une intersection par des routes différentes, le conducteur venant de la gauche est tenu de céder le passage à l'autre conducteur.
Oops. Luckily I don't drive in France much. OK, Belgium.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ite-diesel-dilution/page3#R4SYEOLPl5qDYCO3.99.

The same rule applies in Belgium, and so far as I'm aware, throughout (continental) Europe

 

[awol]

As red as you like, provided it doesn't have Euromarker in it.
I doubt the UK will stop marking its diesel with euromarker any time soon though.
And existing stocks will be euromarked.

As fas I can remember, the definition is "marked fuel". The choice of marker is not consistent across Europe except that "Solvent Yellow 124" is the most common though not universal. The dyes used get modified as ways of obscuring them are developed by the tax dodgers.
I'm afraid your concept of "euromarker" is flawed.

 

[westhinder]

The legislation on CE markings is also quite specific, and I am interested in knowing whether these rules apply only to EU boats (in which case we are golden when we arrive in Zeebrugge in search of food, medicine and asylum next month...

You may be interested to know that the number of UK citizens successfully applying for Belgian citizenship has jumped since the brexit-referendum. Before that it was on average 9 per month, it has been 90 per month since the referendum

 

[lw395]

As fas I can remember, the definition is "marked fuel". The choice of marker is not consistent across Europe except that "Solvent Yellow 124" is the most common though not universal. The dyes used get modified as ways of obscuring them are developed by the tax dodgers.
I'm afraid your concept of "euromarker" is flawed.

My view might be flawed, but it seems to be shared by the EU.
https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/science-update/new-and-better-euromarker-labelling-gas-oil-and-kerosene

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The EU marker is a new one on me, although I was aware that there are different markers and different colours. I may have the opportunity to cruise further afield in 2021 and an EU trip would be on the cards. I have already decommissioned one tank on my boat and access is relatively easy. I could clean out the other tank, more of a hassle than an inconvenience and run through white diesel for a season. What a faff but better than being fined I suppose.

 

[awol]

My view might be flawed, but it seems to be shared by the EU.
https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/science-update/new-and-better-euromarker-labelling-gas-oil-and-kerosene

My memory indeed got it wrong - since 2005 SY124 has been mandated in EU countries though I think Portugal never complied. The UK uses as well as SY124, Solvent Red 24, quinizarin and ((3-(sec-butyl)-4-(decyloxy)phenyl)methanetriyl)tribenzene

 

[JumbleDuck]

As red as you like, provided it doesn't have Euromarker in it.

I note in passing that according to Wikipedia, Euromarker is Solvent Yellow Azo 124 dye and the UK adds an additional chemical because Euromarker is too easy to remove.

Since the US uses Solvent Red 64, those superyachts should have been fine.