apostrophes

[oldvarnish]

As the originator of " Nut's and Bolt's " I still don't see the problem. It looks right to me.

But that doesn't stop you being wrong.

What is correct in prose is not a matter of personal taste.

The rules are there so we can achieve a common understanding; so that we can be in no doubt about what is intended, and in no doubt about what it means. Your 'nut's and bolt's' is ambiguous so leaves doubt in the reader's mind.

Rules change, admittedly, but the one you refer to hasn't yet.

 

[Lakesailor]

This is the type of thing that annoys me. I don't know if it is a function of predictive text, spell checkers or whatever. It is happening more and more frequently on these fora. PLEASE stop it!

What really annoys me is a forumite who attributes a quotation to the wrong person. Please stop it! http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?376203-apostrophes&p=4422754#post4422754

People in general make many grammatical errors or use incorrect words, I am sure I do too. I generally miss apostrophes when I am typing quickly and don't pick up that I missed it..

Others I see..

I often see "Your" instead or "You're" and "Are" instead or "Our".

Seems the word "amount" has replaced "number" eg. "There was a large amount or people here" instead of "There was a large number of people here".

Also "sitting" seems to have been replaced by "sat" eg. "I was sat on that chair" instead of "I was sitting on that chair".

Of course in 50 or 100 years time all these things will be accepted as "proper" English as the language evolves. As it stands it seems the English and the worst as speaking English.

 

[Lakesailor]

Our modern needs?

I give you, "Brain Fart"

Nope. Simple keyboard dyslexia compounded by wearing the wrong glasses.

 

[nigelmercier]

... "Tom and me" is correct, but "you and me" is not and should be "you and I".

Nonsense, it depends on the context. These rules are for you and me.

 

[JohnGC]

Nonsense, it depends on the context. These rules are for you and me.

Please explain.

 

[alahol2]

What really annoys me is a forumite who attributes a quotation to the wrong person. Please stop it! http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?376203-apostrophes&p=4422754#post4422754

Humble apologies, that's what happens when I try to use the multiquote thing. I wasn't really even speaking of a particular poster or posters.

 

[nigelmercier]

Please explain.

The "and I" or "and me" question can be resolved by removing the other party. In your case this becomes "He gave the book to me", which is, of course, correct...

As Steve says, this is a good way to check. But the rule is that if you are the subject, it is "I". If you are the object, it is "me". Hence my example: "These rules are for you and me."

 

[whipper_snapper]

Please explain.

The rules are for you and me. You and I frequently post drivel.

Both correct.

As others have said above, to decide which is correct just try it without the other person:

I post drivel. So it is you and I post drivel.
He gave it to me. So it is he gave it to you and me.

 

[bikerbill]

As Steve says, this is a good way to check. But the rule is that if you are the subject, it is "I". If you are the object, it is "me". Hence my example: "These rules are for you and me."

"Tom and I" and " these rules are for you and me" You can use "I" to be polite. However, why do some people on here like to pick up on spelling mistakes or the misuse of the odd apostrophe? If we can understand what people are writing, why get hung up about it

 

[nigelmercier]

... You can use "I" to be polite ...

Whoever told you that was wrong.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

But that doesn't stop you being wrong.

What is correct in prose is not a matter of personal taste.

The rules are there so we can achieve a common understanding; so that we can be in no doubt about what is intended, and in no doubt about what it means. Your 'nut's and bolt's' is ambiguous so leaves doubt in the reader's mind.



Rules change, admittedly, but the one you refer to hasn't yet.

Not really .

There is your world . Then there is the real world that we all have to live in.

If I decided to write a book , I would then hand it over to the experts so that it could be understood in the best possible way.

Forums reflect reality.

If you had to save the world by defusing a nuclear bomb, and it said " take two turn's to the left and two turn's to the right " I think you would get the drift.

If the instructions then said "a total of five turns altogether" you might be a little worried.

 

[MikeBz]

I can understand apostrophes getting dropped from the language over time or being omitted due to ignorance, laziness etc., but I am baffled by the increasing trend of putting them in where they shouldn't be - taking extra effort to be wrong just seems bizarre and yet it is becoming almost ubiquitous.

 

[johnalison]

fora?

There may or may not be a basis for using "fora" but it is not in general use, any more than the correct "octopodes" for more than one of those creatures with eight legs.

 

[chewi]

I could be described as a pedant on spelling, but when it comes to apostrophes I am lost at sea.
I can cope with the ' as an abbreviation it's rather than it is, but possessives like St. James's and its variations leave me cold.
Even the pedants disagree, so what hope has Joe public or Johnnie foreigner trying to learn English.

I love to uphold the standards of English ( your, you're and the rest) but some of the rules are stupidly incomprehensible.

How does a minor saint come to own a park anyway?

 

[NormanS]

Not really .

There is your world . Then there is the real world that we all have to live in.

If I decided to write a book , I would then hand it over to the experts so that it could be understood in the best possible way.

Forums reflect reality.

If you had to save the world by defusing a nuclear bomb, and it said " take two turn's to the left and two turn's to the right " I think you would get the drift.

If the instructions then said "a total of five turns altogether" you might be a little worried.

2+2=4

 

[oldvarnish]

If you had to save the world by defusing a nuclear bomb, and it said " take two turn's to the left and two turn's to the right " I think you would get the drift.

Imagine the email exchanger went like this: (if spoken none of this is a problem)

Him: Turn the housing! Turned the damned housing! Do exactly as I SAY.
ME: What housing?
HIM: Turn the bolt's!

In that case I would turn the bolt's housing and we would all live happily ever after.
But if he'd written 'turn the bolts' and I'd done that, doing exactly as he says, then it's Goodnight Vienna

 

[Lakesailor]

Humble apologies, that's what happens when I try to use the multiquote thing. I wasn't really even speaking of a particular poster or posters.

C'est la vie

 

[laika]

I used to regularly walk past a row of dubious video emporia near Euston station: the kind which have those coloured plastic flyscreen things hanging in the doorway. I was quite outraged by what I could see in their windows. Not their wares (because the windows were blanked out) but the signs saying "Video's and DVD's". I Felt like going in and pointing out that they couldn't expect to attract the more discerning smut consumer with that kind of signage but instead I went home and researched it. I'm on 3G now and paying by the megabyte and not actually being that fussed I'm not going to look for my sources again but...

Using an apostrophe to pluralise a capitalised abbreviation is acceptable: it draws a distinction between the abbreviation and the "s" pluralising it. I gather that using a small s after capitalised abbreviations is nowadays preferred style (ie DVDs) with the apostrophe used to signify possession (e.g."the DVD's release date"). The 's is more acceptable when the abbreviation ends with "S" (e.g. GPS) but -es is also acceptable. So GPS's and GPSes are both valid plurals. But note that it's not written down anywhere what the rules are, although presumably if you're a journalist there are style guides for your publication. Good job there are sufficient factual errors in Yachting Monthly that we don't have to go looking for the stylistic ones.

I wouldn't criticise GPS's, GPSes or GPSs but personally I think I prefer to dodge the issue and go with something like "GPS receivers".

 

[bikerbill]

Whoever told you that was wrong.

Eh? Nobody said it was wrong. The writer can replace 'me' with 'I' which sounds more polite. Anyway, have you lot ever read a text message from a teenager?

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Imagine the email exchanger went like this: (if spoken none of this is a problem)

Him: Turn the housing! Turned the damned housing! Do exactly as I SAY.
ME: What housing?
HIM: Turn the bolt's!

In that case I would turn the bolt's housing and we would all live happily ever after.
But if he'd written 'turn the bolts' and I'd done that, doing exactly as he says, then it's Goodnight Vienna

I don't know . Possibly.

As a practical forum, we are at least giving this thread some real meaning now.

The question has to be asked :-

Has an abused apostrophe ever caused loss of life or injury ?

Google suggests not.

From personal experience, self assembly mail order bicycles and wardrobes have been innocent victims of poorly constructed instructions. Both with content and grammatical construction. There is no doubt that this has led to personal injury . Particularly on Christmas mornings.

This leads to a further unanswered question :-

Does the apostrophe system need overhauling ?

I think the answer has to be yes.

Any ideas how this could be done ?