API CD Oil - is this it?

doug748 said:
I don't think my engine manufacturer cares which oil is used as long as it is 20:40. For reasons of economy I can think of no reason to go for anything but the most basic, Mineral stuff.
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Is the '748' a certain Italian reference? I once knew a chap who was so obsessive about his new 900SS (this was 35 years ago) that, because the handbook recommended Agip oil, he had it privately imported. Not cheap.
 
pvb said:
So you're suggesting that Volvo Penta would recommend an oil which would damage their engines? I don't think so.
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A couple of issues about this could be considered.
Firstly, as I have repeated many times, nobody's engine is going to fall over this week or this year because they used a high TBN crankcase oil. The problem is medium-long term due to accelerated wear. It is quite possible that neither VP nor the people who supplied them with oil are aware of the problem. As so often happens, it tends to be people with long service and memory who remember this type of occurence.
Secondly, VP seem to have decided that 'one size fits all' when it comes to lubricant. The idea that a single grade of lubricant is satisfactory for anything between a single cylinder yacht auxiliary and a turbo-charged 2000 HP mobo engine is quite frankly ridiculous. Don't take my word for it, look at any oil company database and it will soon become apparent that they make a wide range of oils to cover the wide range of engines and duties that will use them. This is the one I am most familiar with http://www.epc.shell.com/ but Esso, Mobil, Castrol and many others show something similar.
 
vyv_cox said:
Firstly, as I have repeated many times, nobody's engine is going to fall over this week or this year because they used a high TBN crankcase oil. The problem is medium-long term due to accelerated wear. It is quite possible that neither VP nor the people who supplied them with oil are aware of the problem.
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It hadn't really occurred to me that Volvo Penta might know nothing about oil.
 
pvb said:
It hadn't really occurred to me that Volvo Penta might know nothing about oil.
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That isn't quite what I said. Several people in Shell Research knew nothing about the problems of operating cool-running engines on high TBN oils when I began enquiring. Older, more experienced people were able to give me chapter and verse.

Remember Formula Shell? A disastrous episode that cut Shell's market share in UK in half, caused by a simple and fundamental error made by research fuel formulators lacking experience and knowledge.
 
Is it worth looking at the problem from the other end for a minute? i.e. have any forumites actually experienced an oil-induced failure of a small yacht axillary engine? It's not that I'm doubting Vyv or Vic as to wha tthe BEST thing to do is, but are we worrying about what (in most practical cases) is no0t a problem? A case in point is Avocet's BMW D12 engine, fitted in (I think) 1989 by a previous owner. Supposed to run on API CC/CD and a straight 30. I've never actually run it on that since we've had the boat (1992). It always gets a multigrade (usually a 10W40) and has had mineral, synthetic and semi-synthetic depending on what has been on special offer. I've never had a lubrication problem (although it's a bit of a weird one - roller bearing crank and plain bearing main and big end, all splash lubricated, no oil pump or filter). I fully expect the raw water cooling system to corrode the head to death long before the bottom end dies.
 
vyv_cox said:
Remember Formula Shell? A disastrous episode that cut Shell's market share in UK in half, caused by a simple and fundamental error made by research fuel formulators lacking experience and knowledge.
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Indeed I do remember Formula Shell, which was petrol with an additive mix. As I recall, the additive was put into the fuel by the tanker driver, at the petrol station, and they sometimes overdosed - leading to valve seats burning on a number of vehicles. So blaming it on "research fuel formulators" might be unwarranted.
 
macd said:
Is the '748' a certain Italian reference? I once knew a chap who was so obsessive about his new 900SS (this was 35 years ago) that, because the handbook recommended Agip oil, he had it privately imported. Not cheap.
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I thought it was a reference to the Avro/Hawker Siddeley 748.
 
Avocet said:
Is it worth looking at the problem from the other end for a minute? i.e. have any forumites actually experienced an oil-induced failure of a small yacht axillary engine? It's not that I'm doubting Vyv or Vic as to wha tthe BEST thing to do is, but are we worrying about what (in most practical cases) is no0t a problem? A case in point is Avocet's BMW D12 engine, fitted in (I think) 1989 by a previous owner. Supposed to run on API CC/CD and a straight 30. I've never actually run it on that since we've had the boat (1992). It always gets a multigrade (usually a 10W40) and has had mineral, synthetic and semi-synthetic depending on what has been on special offer. I've never had a lubrication problem (although it's a bit of a weird one - roller bearing crank and plain bearing main and big end, all splash lubricated, no oil pump or filter). I fully expect the raw water cooling system to corrode the head to death long before the bottom end dies.
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I reckon you're right!

My boat has a 23 year old Volvo Penta 2003T engine. For the last 17 years (around 2000 hours running) I've used decent quality oil, usually to a much higher spec than Volvo Penta's CD recommendation. For many years, I've used Halfords synthetic or part synthetic oil, primarily because the engine has a turbocharger which I'd like to protect. It still starts easily, runs smoothly, doesn't burn oil. Vyv suggests that using higher-grade oils leads to long-term problems; well, 23 years is fairly long-term, so maybe I've got to wait another decade or so.
 
pvb said:
I reckon you're right!

My boat has a 23 year old Volvo Penta 2003T engine. For the last 17 years (around 2000 hours running) I've used decent quality oil, usually to a much higher spec than Volvo Penta's CD recommendation. For many years, I've used Halfords synthetic or part synthetic oil, primarily because the engine has a turbocharger which I'd like to protect. It still starts easily, runs smoothly, doesn't burn oil. Vyv suggests that using higher-grade oils leads to long-term problems; well, 23 years is fairly long-term, so maybe I've got to wait another decade or so.
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Turbo engines of that era give lubricant a hard time, and the 2003T is no exception so a higher grade isn't likely to cause problems; that said unless you live on the boat or charter it and accummulate hundreds of hours a year, the 50-odd hours a year followed by an annual oil change that the average yachtie does doesn't really tax the oil's ability to deal with anything other than moisture.
 
pvb said:
Indeed I do remember Formula Shell, which was petrol with an additive mix. As I recall, the additive was put into the fuel by the tanker driver, at the petrol station, and they sometimes overdosed - leading to valve seats burning on a number of vehicles. So blaming it on "research fuel formulators" might be unwarranted.
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Shell were very careful not to reveal the actual cause. Always a good ploy to blame an innocent party well down the pecking order. 'Overdosing' is just not possible, they don't dip into a bucket of additives, it is carefully metered. I won't reveal the true story for obvious reasons but it was a formulation cock-up.
 
vyv_cox said:
Shell were very careful not to reveal the actual cause. Always a good ploy to blame an innocent party well down the pecking order. 'Overdosing' is just not possible, they don't dip into a bucket of additives, it is carefully metered.
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Was it not the case that 2 star, 3 star and 4 star were all delivered as the same stuff, with carefully measured doses of tetraethyl lead added on delivery?
 
pvb said:
Yes, I understand that Vyv has certain views on the subject. However, the point I made about VP raising the recommended oil spec for their 2010/20/30/40 engines during the production run is valid. If the more modern oil grades are as bad for yacht engines as Vyv thinks, why did VP upgrade their recommendation?
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It's like religion.
People have views, you will not change them.
If you think it's extreme on here, search around a few American motorbike forums for threads about oil.

One thing to note is that most of the 'higher' spec oils also pass all the criteria to be sold as 'CD'.
 
lw395 said:
It's like religion.
People have views, you will not change them.
If you think it's extreme on here, search around a few American motorbike forums for threads about oil.

One thing to note is that most of the 'higher' spec oils also pass all the criteria to be sold as 'CD'.
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Agree with you, oil seems to inspire some polarised opinions! Incidentally, I wasn't expecting to change Vyv Cox's views on oil, simply presenting an alternative view on the need or otherwise to hunt for old-fashioned oil, with some justification.
 
pvb said:
Agree with you, oil seems to inspire some polarised opinions! Incidentally, I wasn't expecting to change Vyv Cox's views on oil, simply presenting an alternative view on the need or otherwise to hunt for old-fashioned oil, with some justification.
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I think that API CI-4 looks very interesting, TBN reduced to allow for the fact that we all burn low-sulphur fuel now, not synthetic and easy to source. Just to demonstrate that I continue to explore all possible options. My 'views' are not the result of some religious mania, just the result of discussions with oil chemists who know what they are talking about.
 
vyv_cox said:
I think that API CI-4 looks very interesting, TBN reduced to allow for the fact that we all burn low-sulphur fuel now, not synthetic and easy to source. Just to demonstrate that I continue to explore all possible options.
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Gosh, am I gradually winning you over? ;)

Incidentally, CI-4 was introduced over a decade ago...
 
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