Anyone sailed a Moody 34 or 346?

[NealB]

Well I am not going to argue further because this is not my thread albeit on topic.

Please feel free to air your views, as I am perilously close to making an offer on a 'new' boat, and a M346 is very high on the target list.

 

[mrming]

Although I have not tabulated the turns accurately I would say from memory that they are random because I recall the sails being suddenly aback or sometimes they are full after rounding up with a large heel as the wind comes on the beam.

These course changes are not small or gradual but a massive swing bringing the boat out of control by about 90 degrees before I can get hold of the wheel.

Mast rake alone wouldn't cause that in my experience - too much forward would cause lee helm, too much aft, weather helm, but it would be repeatable - the same thing would usually happen when you let go of the wheel. I can't say I've ever heard of a boat that would round randomly up or down.

My boat has a completely unbalanced rudder (it's transom hung and raisable for shallow draft) and mast raked aft for a little weatherhelm. The unbalanced rudder means you always need a hand on the tiller, but if you let it go the boat will always round gently up into the wind. The only way to induce lee helm would be to create a substantial amount of windward heel.

Would there by any chance be large waves or swell at play when this is happening? Does it happen on all points of sail?

Edit: additional thought - if your mast is truly vertical, adding a bit of rake aft can only improve things as it will at least encourage the boat to always round up to windward even if it doesn't solve the tracking problem.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Please feel free to air your views, as I am perilously close to making an offer on a 'new' boat, and a M346 is very high on the target list.

The M346 is a good boat, well constructed and sails well. Down below she is well laid out with a superb aft cabin. The Heads are close to the companion way and also useful for hanging wet foul weather stuff without dripping through the saloon. The L-shaped Galley is normal with good immediate stowage for things always in use behind sliding Perspex. On deck under sail the helm is comfortable, but for single handing the sheet winches are out of reach of the helmsman. As you know all boats have quirks and foibles that do not suit everyone so the key to choosing a comfortable boat for you is to choose one that suits you. The M346 suits me except for the tendency to be directionally unstable which needs a hand on the wheel all the time. Single handed sailing is difficult for me on this boat because by the time I have climbed out of the helm position to get to the sheet winches the boat has decided to go somewhere else. This would not be a problem for two people. That is why I hope my Aries will solve the helm problem completely. I am not too happy with electronic Auto pilots like mine which is mounted in the cockpit and is in the way. It can be switched off when hand steering but it must remain rigged and it spoils the experience for me.

Off course the unstable direction is an advantage in a marina because she can spin on a dime so at least you can swing into any marina slot.

That's it, if you sail two up then the M34 or M346 has few problems for you. If you sail single-handed then sit in the helm position and dry run a tack or two. Some helmsmen in a similar boat sit in the main cockpit forward of the wheel close to the winches and steer the boat with one hand below the wheel fulcrum to avoid the reverse effect if the top of the wheel is used.

Hope that helps.

 

[GrahamM376]

I am not too happy with electronic Auto pilots like mine which is mounted in the cockpit and is in the way. It can be switched off when hand steering but it must remain rigged and it spoils the experience for me.

Now it makes more sense, the autopilot will I think be your main problem. When I bought ours it had one of those rubber band jobs which was so slow as to be pretty useless. Installing a much faster reacting ST5000 inboard pilot made life much better but still not ideal. I could leave it on autohelm unattended much of the time but it still wandered around a fair bit.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Now it makes more sense, the autopilot will I think be your main problem. When I bought ours it had one of those rubber band jobs which was so slow as to be pretty useless. Installing a much faster reacting ST5000 inboard pilot made life much better but still not ideal. I could leave it on autohelm unattended much of the time but it still wandered around a fair bit.

My Aries will solve the problem. I have avoided installing it before because of fickle Med winds. However I realised last year that being chained to the wheel with constant undivided attention was very tiring and explained why I was mentally exhausted after (for instance) sailing down to Levkas and timing the bridge opening when the clock was below on the bulkhead.

For a single hander, in my opinion the most important non-negotiable mandatory feature must be the ability for the boat to continue on course for at least 10 minutes and hopefully more while the lone skipper attends to other duties. Therefore I concluded that even ten minutes respite from the wheel would improve my situation immensely. That is why my Aries will soon be winging its way to Preveza via the Swedish Posten parcel service.

You are probably correct that my Autohelm 3000 is not fast enough under sail. Works Ok with sails down and under engine.

 

[jwilson]

Snipped .... The M346 suits me except for the tendency to be directionally unstable which needs a hand on the wheel all the time.
Hope that helps.

There are not many modern beamy boats that you can just take your hand off the wheel without a sudden course change unless you have huge friction in the steering gear, or hydraulic steering. Usually though it will swing fast to windward - unless you lock the wheel, in which case you have a fair chance of 5-10 seconds before something happens. Once a turn starts the water pressure acting on an UNCONTROLLED rudder blade may accelerate the turn.

Let go of the wheel on my current Jeanneau 35 at say 5-6 knots and she will slam into a violent turn, but there's nothing wrong with the boat: it's just a characteristic of the hull design - easy to pivot on a short deep keel without the rudder holding her on course. Having sailed both, I'd rate the M346 as substantially more stable directionally than the Jeanneau.

Fore and aft trim can affect course stability - bows-down usually makes the course less stable and stern down makes the boat more directionally stable. I don't think mast rake would cause the problem of both-way erratic turns, unless it was hugely forward which would create lee helm. Really bad sail trim can of course cause problems. The M346 does not have a big balancing area forward of the rudder post for the rudder itself to cause any inherent course instability.

 

[BurnitBlue]

That's very interesting when you wrote that most boats (Fin Keel) will round up with a violent turn unless the wheel is locked. All my previous boats were Long Keel so my M346 was the first with a short fin keel. I knew that it is common knowledge that Long Keel track better than Fin Keel boats but I never realised that the reality can be so violent and limiting to a single-hander.

When I have brought the subject up earlier, I invariably get the response that deny that THEIR boat tracks badly and some even say it will steer herself for hours at a time.

Yours is the first honest post I have read that states that nearly all Fin Keel boats are directionally unstable. Perhaps not as much as mine but they will all charge off if the wheel was left to turn freely for 5 to 10 seconds.

I am glad you posted this because I like my boat but was a bit disturbed to think that there was a unique design fault in her, when in fact it is a common fault in the Fin Keel concept.

I am really looking forward to installing Harry Aries in the Spring.

 

[NealB]

Yours is the first honest post I have read that states that nearly all Fin Keel boats are directionally unstable. Perhaps not as much as mine but they will all charge off if the wheel was left to turn freely for 5 to 10 seconds.

I am glad you posted this because I like my boat but was a bit disturbed to think that there was a unique design fault in her, when in fact it is a common fault in the Fin Keel concept.

I must admit that my experience is different.

I've owned many different boats over the years, from a lovely old long keeled wooden gaff ketch to catamarans.

In this particular context, I've owned: Moody 33 mk1 fin keeled, Westerly 33 fin keeled ketch and a Westerly 33 bilge keeled sloop.

All of those could quite happily to be left to their own devices, to windward, for up to a few minutes.

Is the 34/ 346 really such a dramatic step change from those styles?

 

[mrming]

That's very interesting when you wrote that most boats (Fin Keel) will round up with a violent turn unless the wheel is locked.

This is simply not true. There are fin keelers out there that track and balance very nicely under sail. They're never going to behave like a long keeler in that respect, but to say that most fin keelers will round up or down with a violent turn is just not the case.

 

[BurnitBlue]

.... up to a few minutes" means you are basically agreeing with jwilson who I quoted.

 

[silver-fox]

If was considering buying and had read such a review I would arrange a trial sail with the vendor on a suitably gusty day and put your mind at rest before purchase. If you can't do this join the MOA - it will cost you £20 and you will have access to a vast library of information and you will be able to quiz 34/246 owners directly. (I believe the MOA has something in the region of 2000 members)

I don't have any direct experience of the Moody 34 but I have sailed a Moody 31, a 376 and now own a 425 and I associate this range of Bill Dixon designs with very well mannered, well balanced cruising boats.

 

[GrahamM376]

Is the 34/ 346 really such a dramatic step change from those styles?

Compared to many modern boats, the 346 has a longer keel and a half skegged rudder so should a better couse keeper than a high aspect keel + spade rudder. I've only had 4 boats - Centaur, Berwick and 346 all twin keelers and for the past 10 years a 376 which steers like it's on rails most of the time and has been left on (inboard) autohelm for up to 3 days at a time - it does 95% of our steering.

The 376 is a very similar hull design to the 346, just 3 ft longer so, it's puzzling that the 34/346 has this reputation - mostly with those of us who are short handed and don't want to be on the wheel for hours or, in some cases days on end. Even the Centaur and Berwick were better on tiller pilots.

 

[BurnitBlue]

This is simply not true. There are fin keelers out there that track and balance very nicely under sail. They're never going to behave like a long keeler in that respect, but to say that most fin keelers will round up or down with a violent turn is just not the case.

Hang on a minute. I have only owned one Fin Keeler and she will NOT hold her course for more than a few seconds. That is my experience to date so I am quoting jwilson whose Benny behaves in much the same way.

I have no doubt that they track well under sail but for how long. jwilson says his benny will violently round up in 5 to 10 seconds, nealb says his experience of three Fin Keel yachts will track for up to a few minutes. Mine will track for about 5 seconds, JJ and AB don't give a time but I reckon it will be measured in seconds. In my opinion that does not cut the mustard.

So I will continue to hope that my Aries will control the boat long enough for me to give me a break. Whatever anecdotal evidence other Fin Keel owners have does not help me, or my opinion of Fin Keel boats based on a my own experience which is one Fin Keel and five Long Keel boats.

 

[NealB]

.... up to a few minutes" means you are basically agreeing with jwilson who I quoted.

No... jwilson's experience is that boats will stay on course for a few seconds. The boats I listed (M33, W33) will do so for up to (quite a few) minutes (unattended, ie no autohelm).

 

[tyce]

My moody 31 too windward when balanced will sail herself in reasonable conditions for along time, off the wind it will wander quite quickly though.

 

[mrming]

Hang on a minute. I have only owned one Fin Keeler and she will NOT hold her course for more than a few seconds. That is my experience to date so I am quoting jwilson whose Benny behaves in much the same way.

I have no doubt that they track well under sail but for how long. jwilson says his benny will violently round up in 5 to 10 seconds, nealb says his experience of three Fin Keel yachts will track for up to a few minutes. Mine will track for about 5 seconds, JJ and AB don't give a time but I reckon it will be measured in seconds. In my opinion that does not cut the mustard.

So I will continue to hope that my Aries will control the boat long enough for me to give me a break. Whatever anecdotal evidence other Fin Keel owners have does not help me, or my opinion of Fin Keel boats based on a my own experience which is one Fin Keel and five Long Keel boats.

First of all, it sounds like the 346 doesn't track all that well and as you say you have a solution coming in the form of the Aries so fingers crossed that will work for you.

I understand that my saying some fin keelers track well doesn't help you personally, but this is a public forum and so I just wanted to offer an alternative view to your statement which I felt might be misleading to someone reading the thread later on.

The whole subject is way more complex that just talking about what kind of keel a boat has - a lot of it comes down to hull form (as jwilson said), rig tuning, sail design and trim, hull trim etc.

Hands up, I have never sailed a Moody 346, but I do know something about setting up and tuning boats, and there are a few things in this thread that don't make sense to me.

 

[Tranona]

Hang on a minute. I have only owned one Fin Keeler and she will NOT hold her course for more than a few seconds. That is my experience to date so I am quoting jwilson whose Benny behaves in much the same way.

I have no doubt that they track well under sail but for how long. jwilson says his benny will violently round up in 5 to 10 seconds, nealb says his experience of three Fin Keel yachts will track for up to a few minutes. Mine will track for about 5 seconds, JJ and AB don't give a time but I reckon it will be measured in seconds. In my opinion that does not cut the mustard.

So I will continue to hope that my Aries will control the boat long enough for me to give me a break. Whatever anecdotal evidence other Fin Keel owners have does not help me, or my opinion of Fin Keel boats based on a my own experience which is one Fin Keel and five Long Keel boats.

I am puzzled by two things here. Firstly why your boat should behave so differently from other Moodys. My experience has been with a 37 similar to Grahams and it was very steady. Second this assumption that fin keels do not track well. My Bavaria 37 with shallow draft keel behaves impeccably and is easily balanced to sail itself except when pushed hard and overcanvassed. Easy to adjust and balance sail area with furling main and jib.

 

[jwilson]

No... jwilson's experience is that boats will stay on course for a few seconds. The boats I listed (M33, W33) will do so for up to (quite a few) minutes (unattended, ie no autohelm).

In light steady winds almost any boat can be trimmed to stay on course for some time with the helm free, as long as there is enough friction in rudder bearings and any wheel linkage to stop the rudder turning. Once you get to the point as wind/heel increases and where there is some (usually weather helm) developing as soon as the rudder pressure overcomes the friction then you will have an accelerating turn - usually to windward.

My current boat is a Jeanneau 35 - deep fin and semi-balanced spade rudder, with a quite low friction system wheel. At say 5-6 knots, whether to windward or on a reach, with sails set properly, you will probably have a sixth of a turn of the wheel balancing the weather helm. If you let go the wheel it will within a couple of seconds spin to full-lock, and the boat will probably have tacked herself within 3 seconds. This is common, normal and not a problem. That's what the wheel lock (for brief let-gos) or autohelm, for longer periods, is for.

In light and reasonably steady winds you can trim her to stay on course offwind for quite long periods - maybe a minute - with the wheel locked (not free), but even a small change in windspeed will defeat this. To windward you can have long, long periods of hands-off wheel-locked by slightly overtrimming the genoa and slightly easing the main, but why not trim perfectly and use the autohelm.

I have sailed a lot of boats, and owned a long-keeler, but have never met a boat that would track on for lengthy periods reliably offwind with wheel or tiller free, except in steady and preferably light winds, or with deliberate significant alterations to normal sail trim. Many boats can sail themselves to windward helm-free or locked.

 

[NealB]

Thanks for all the replies on here, and for the pms....very useful.

I'll keep you updated, if there any developments.