Any yards still building hulls for owner completion?

[Cookie Jar]

Hi everyone,

Just out of curiosity...
Back in the late 70's, 80's and a bit through the 90's there were quite a lot of yards building boats that were "owner completed". Some models were even "best sellers" under this DIY configuration than the completed version.

Are those days long gone now? Are there any yards around still including this option?

Thanks.

 

[Norman_E]

A few years ago there was a company at the Paris boat show offering hulls for home completion, but even the French now seem to have stopped such production. There are just far too many cheap second hand boats with pefectly good hulls that can can be refitted for far less cost that fitting out a new hull, and even then the total cost will considerably exceed any possible resale value. Buying a decent second hand boat is now a better option than home completion or doing a complete refit on an old and worn out boat.

 

[Kukri]

A few years ago there was a company at the Paris boat show offering hulls for home completion, but even the French now seem to have stopped such production. There are just far too many cheap second hand boats with pefectly good hulls that can can be refitted for far less cost that fitting out a new hull, and even then the total cost will considerably exceed any possible resale value. Buying a decent second hand boat is now a better option than home completion or doing a complete refit on an old and worn out boat.

What an interesting subject!

My boat is one of an early GRP class in which perhaps one third were built by the builders, one third were completed by professional yards (some of these are lovely!) and one third are amateur completions (some of these are rather homely!)

I'm struck by the owners association website which shows that several people are doggedly doing complete rebuilds of the "rip the lot out and start again properly!" type. The workmanship going into some of these is of good professional standard. The class is known for the excellence of the hull mouldings (Tylers).

So it does seem that a good moulding can be very long lived and that it's worth re-using an old moulding.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think there are issues with RCD certification for home completed boats. Tranona is generally good on this stuff, so if we all chant his name he may appear and offer enlightenment.

 

[jwilson]

Keep it 5 years in the same self-build ownership from completion and RCD certification is not needed.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Keep it 5 years in the same self-build ownership from completion and RCD certification is not needed.

Indeed, but I think the problem was that if the boat was supplied in too complete a condition it had to meet RCD, so the basically fitted out packages became much harder to supply. The last manufacturer I can think of to offer this was Hunter, who still list home complete packages at http://www.britishhunter.co.uk/page26.html/

 

[Tranona]

As requested my take on the subject ( having built two boats from kits). Like most things that go out of fashion there are multiple reasons. If you cast yourself back to 1976 when I built my last one, a Seawych 19 there were very few cheap boats on the market. Newish boats (10 years or less) were selling for what they cost new - although in fact inflation helped - and old cheap boats were mostly wood and past it. There were real savings to be made building yourself from a well engineered kit which was relatively cheap to produce with few regulations, a good backup industry for components and an expanding industry with lots of different designs coming onto the market.

Perhaps more importantly boats were smaller and therefore the project more easily managed. I built my Seawych in less than 6 months in my front garden. Even a 25' Hunter could be done in a year. The savings were in the order of 25-30% off a factory finished boat. Obviously boats built from mouldings without a factory kit took longer and were variable in quality.

At the other end of the scale, price and size wise, building a big cruising boat was also popular, because again the choice on the secondhand market was limited and semi custom factory built very expensive. If you could commit to several years' work you could end up with a custom built boat for a good price. Now, however you can buy good cruising boats in the 35-40' range for 30% of the cost of a similar size new boat.

What started the decline was reduction in new boat prices as European builders attacked the UK. This led to shrinkage in the UK industry, reducing the number of builders who might sell mouldings or kits and an increase in ready to go used boats at lower prices. So the attraction of home build changed in a very short time.

The introduction of the RCD did not help as many of the boats popular with home build did not comply or needed redesign work to comply. The paperwork and cost of certification on one offs or home build is out of proportion compared with series production certification. It does not help that newer boats are generally bigger and designed for semi automated production unlike the older ones which were labour intensive so do not lend themselves to the same savings to home complete.

The modern day equivalent is what is discussed here frequently - that is refitting an old boat which has a sound hull and deck, but just needs refilling with new goodies. Personally I think this activity will die out shortly for the same reasons - the amount of effort and cost is not worth it for most types of everyday boat, particularly under 30' or so. The collapse in prices of such boats is a clear sign their days are numbered.

All that is the supply side, and you can find similar changes in the demand side. Fewer people are in a position to commit to such long term projects which are also difficult to justify financially. This is a consumer product and it seems that owning a boat is more important than building one, even if for many more time is spent fixing it, or not using it, rather than actually sailing!

 

[JumbleDuck]

The modern day equivalent is what is discussed here frequently - that is refitting an old boat which has a sound hull and deck, but just needs refilling with new goodies. Personally I think this activity will die out shortly for the same reasons - the amount of effort and cost is not worth it for most types of everyday boat, particularly under 30' or so. The collapse in prices of such boats is a clear sign their days are numbered.

All that is the supply side, and you can find similar changes in the demand side. Fewer people are in a position to commit to such long term projects which are also difficult to justify financially. This is a consumer product and it seems that owning a boat is more important than building one, even if for many more time is spent fixing it, or not using it, rather than actually sailing!

Thanks, T.

In the aviation world, the saying is "If you want to build, build, but if you want to fly, buy." I am sure there are still people who find building or restoring a boat rewarding and worthwhile (I've done one myself), but as you say it makes very little financial sense any more. The only exception I can think of is Wharram catamarans, but they are so quirkily individual that I get the impression that buying someone else's is rather missing the point ...

 

[TQA]

There were a number of French factories turning out steel hulls which could be had in any state of completion. Chatam was one of such yard. Some years back I met a young French couple sailing one which they had sailed out to the Caribbean with a bare interior and were looking for work while they finished off their sailing home.

I think Chatam is no more but these guys are still in business [ I think ]

 

[Jim@sea]

Its a shame that firms like Colvic are not still manufacturing as the internet today would make it so much easier to buy everything you wanted and have it delivered to your house the next day.

 

[Ric]

The problem with fitting out an old hull is that you are stuck with an old-looking, cramped and slow boat.

A friend of mine persuaded the Maxus yard (Poland) to sell him a Maxus 28 bare-hull. He has fitted it out with all his own choice rigging, deck gear, chandlery, instruments etc, built his own (larger) fridge, fitted his own (removable and smaller) saloon table (what use is a saloon table in the Med?), larger water tank, own choice of engine, taller mast. The result is a very modern and fast hull (it will plane), very spacious interior, far better suited to his own sailing programme. He reckoned it has cost slightly more than if he had bought the boat in completed state - but then he has a far better boat.

 

[Ric]

There were a number of French factories turning out steel hulls which could be had in any state of completion. Chatam was one of such yard. Some years back I met a young French couple sailing one which they had sailed out to the Caribbean with a bare interior and were looking for work while they finished off their sailing home.

I think Chatam is no more but these guys are still in business [ I think ]

"Chatam" was never a yard. It is just the brand name for home completed versions of Dujardin Atlantis yachts, which are still being built to order.

http://www.dujardin-icofrance.com/page-la-gamme-atlantis-15027.html

I am sure if you commissioned from them a "Chatham" version they would oblige.

 

[Davy_S]

It is a lot easier if you want a Mobo, procharter offer home completion.http://procharterworkboats.uk/

 

[Motor_Sailor]

. . . I am sure if you commissioned from them a "Chatham" version they would oblige.

Metal boat builders (and others) were always keen to sell 'bare hulls'. Producing the hull is quick, time efficient and appears really good value. The metal shell with no openings cut, surface finish or ballast, appears to mere mortals to be just like a boat, and when it's dumped on your drive looks huge and impressive and most people believe after some simple 'finishing', it's going to be the bargain boat of the year.

Yards are keen to delude people like this because keeping the metal work side of the yard busy is important. For the yard to finish it from there takes way more time and money and often it's hard to deploy (especially steel) welders onto anything else. So let them keep welding and knocking out people's dreams whilst the rest of the yard caters to people more firmly rooted on this planet.

However, the only realistic stage to buy a kit metal boat, is to have all the hull construction finished, (blasted and primed if steel), ballast in place, the bulkhead and sole installed. Less than that and it's such a mammoth task that few can see it through.

We built dozens of hulls for home completion, but I would say only one was bought by someone who wanted to go sailing. He had us take it through to a fully 'sail away' stage but with only a sole and bulkheads inside. He then built a really simple and basic interior and then headed out to circumnavigate several times in both the tropics and high latitudes. Knowing the boat intimately and only installing simple, bullet proof systems meant him and his wife probably had the highest ratio of sailing to boat maintenance down time that I've known. Most of the other 'home finishers' have never made it to the water.

 

[Neeves]

In Australia, maybe limited to the East coast, there is a whole industry devoted to home builds of catamarans. There are a number of respected designers who sell plans, people selling routed foam defined by those plans. Lightwave will sell cats, hull bonded to deck, for home completion. Some are excellent quality some look, well, 'home made'.

About 6-8 years ago Harken estimated there were 500 home builds - an interesting market for a winch (etc) supplier.

 

[Cookie Jar]

We built dozens of hulls for home completion, but I would say only one was bought by someone who wanted to go sailing.

That's a really interesting comment...

Personally, I have always been interested in steel boats and many (wow.. many indeed) years ago I even bought the plans to build a 37 footer, thinking on commissioning it out pretty much as you described... but then "reality" struck and the plans got thrown into the drawer, where they still are.

If I would have the money, I would certainly go down that route... but my budget does not allow it.
My "reality" is definitely the second-hand (make that 5th-hand) market.

 

[Rafiki]

If you go to any large boatyard/marina with lots of land you will find people fitting out old hulls to sail away or liveaboard - how many actually get finished is another matter. For the marina with lots of land space it's good business - they have a permanent year round tenant, who buys some stuff ( but probably not much!) from their chandlery.

 

[William_H]

Essentially to undertake building or buying a new boat the design needs to be something really modern/good compared to the old s/h boats available. If the new design is not sufficiently advanced then a s/h boat of an acceptable sort is the far better approach. Then just refurbish as necessary. Then go sailing. Don't forget that bit. If you really want a modern design then buy a factory completed one and save all the trouble. If you want the pleasure of refitting then do so. olewill

 

[wotayottie]

Tranona has done a very fair historical analysis. My own take on it is that society has changed from the immediate post war DIY culture to a buy it off the shelf attitude.
We used to be able to buy kit cars as well as kit boats, but again that has largely died off. We used to join sailing clubs to build common facilities and as a way of sailing cheaply - again that is dying with people increasingly just paying for a marina berth or even just chartering. These days we want our fun pre packaged days and thats reflected in the attitude to sailing. Increasingly people buy a Bav or similar and chop it in part ex for the latest model after a few years, just like they do with their car.

 

[Cookie Jar]

These days we want our fun pre packaged days and thats reflected in the attitude to sailing. Increasingly people buy a Bav or similar and chop it in part ex for the latest model after a few years, just like they do with their car.

Yes, I think you're right.
But being kind of "attached" to what I have (irregardless of having the budget or not), it's a bit strange for me to observe more and more of this "social behavior". Somehow I have always (although consciously naively) believed that boat owners to be somewhat immune to the consuming bit. But I guess that was only a majority 20years ago. Now maybe becoming a minority.

My wife once suggested that I could charter instead of waiting/saving to buy a small boat and although I can fully understand the financial benefit in some cases, for me it was a straight 2 milliseconds "No way" answer. I like to know exactly what I have and (I think specially) those moments that you are staring at your boat, just because you really have a connection with it. Irregardless of size, model, looks or even super performance. You love it and that's it.

At the end of the day, each to his own (and quite rightfully so), but it wouldn't work for me.