Any views on the Mercury V6 Tdi diesel

[PCUK]

Thinking about a DIY re-power and saw this 3 litre V6 putting out 265hp. Big output from a small block that is worrying but wondered if anyone has any hands-on experience of their longevity and reliability and what the base engine is?

 

[rafiki_]

I'm pretty sure it is the VW Group V6 diesel. Great engine in cars. For the marinised version, I think it struggled in the Cummins and Mercruiser partnership/divorce process, and became a bit of an orphan. Latestarter will know more.

 

[Portofino]

No experiance, but the " car" base would put me off - cambelts for a start ,will have a change out life - if not adhered to = snap - prob is you can not just pull up and open the bonnet in a boat ,like a car!

 

[Latestarter1]

No experiance, but the " car" base would put me off - cambelts for a start ,will have a change out life - if not adhered to = snap - prob is you can not just pull up and open the bonnet in a boat ,like a car!

Where did tht come from...........Audi/VW V6 has chain driven camshafts!!

In practice in general I prefer cam belts, more problems with poorly designed chain driven camshafts, plenty of evidence of Ford Duratorque and Mercedes engines jumping a tooth leading to trashed engine. When did cam drive stop people purchasing Volvo Penta D3's with belt driven camshafts? Personally I HATE VG turbomachinery on marine engines, but starting life as automotive engines this is what you get lumbered with.

Cummins did a heap of CPE(Combustion Performance Emissions) stuff before the falling out with Mercury and despite the fact I have never been out on boat with V6TDI installed it is reportedly a rocket ship.

On durability front although 87hp/liter is at the high end of LDA based marine diesels, however cruise power which is all that matters, is in the order of 70hp/liter therefore a no brainer.

How well Barrus support this engine is the key, Mercruiser have in the past always made a pigs ear for selling diesel engines hence the CMD tie up, have they suddenly become smart......Who knows.

 

[Portofino]

From here it's the fuel pump that's appears to be belt driven According to this below ------I thought there was a belt waiting to snap in there somewhere
3.0 V6 24v TDI CR 150–195 kW


Volkswagen Marine 3.0-litre V6 TDI 265-6 marine engine. This is a marine-modified version of the 3.0 V6 24v TDI CR automobile engine.
This common rail V6 turbodiesel was developed by Audi, and first installed in the Audi D3 A8 in 2004. Subsequently made available for all longitudinal engined Audis, along with the same engine orientation in Volkswagen Passenger Cars 'premium' models and Volkswagen Marine applications.
identification
parts code prefix: 059
engine configuration and engine displacement
90° V6 engine, Turbocharged Direct Injection (TDI) turbodiesel; 2,967 cubic centimetres (181.1*cu*in); bore x stroke: 83.0 by 91.4 millimetres (3.27*in ×*3.60*in), stroke ratio: 0.91:1 - undersquare/long-stroke, 494.5*cc per cylinder, compression ratio 17.0:1
cylinder block and crankcase
compacted vermicular graphite cast iron (GJV/CGI) with UV laser-honed exposed bores; cast bed-plate reinforcing lower bearing frame incorporating four main bearings each affixed with four bolts, balance shaft, die-forged steel crossplane crankshaft with offset crankpins to create an even firing order, simplex roller chain-driven contra-rotating balance shaft mounted within the 'vee', diagonal fracture-split connecting rods, oil-channel–cooled pistons with 'bowl in piston' combustion chamber, two-part oil sump with multi-chamber baffled insert, chain-driven ancillaries, oil filter module (incorporating cyclonic oil separator and water-to-oil cooler) mounted within the 'vee'
cylinder heads & valvetrain
cast aluminium alloy; four valves per cylinder, 24 valves total, low-friction roller finger cam followers with hydraulic valve clearance compensation, double overhead camshafts driven by four simplex roller chains and spur gears (hybrid relay method), dual inlet ports, siamesed exhaust ports
aspiration
hot-film air mass meter, two separate cast alloy intake manifolds, one BorgWarner variable geometry turbocharger (VGT) with electric boost control fitted within the Vee (water-cooled on Marine variants), maximum absolute pressure 2.3 bars (33*psi), two parallel side-mounted intercoolers (SMICs), sea-water tube intercooler on Marine variants, two cast iron exhaust manifolds (water-cooled on Marine variants)
fuel system, exhaust system and engine management
common rail (CR) diesel direct injection, initially one later two separate timing belt-driven high-pressure injection pumps and rail for each cylinder bank, rail pressure of 230 to 1,600 bars (3,340 to 23,210 psi), centrally sited seven-hole piezo injectors, dual pilot injection and up to five main injection pulses per piston cycle; water-cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), catalytic converter and diesel particulate filter (DPF); Bosch EDC16 electronic engine control unit (ECU), Bosch MDC16*CP34 Marine Diesel Control on Marine variants
Dimensions
length: 444*mm (17.5*in), mass: 219 kilograms (483*lb) (automotive), 325 kilograms (717*lb) (Marine variants - dry weight, including DMF, cooling system and all ancillaries)
DIN-rated motive power and torque outputs, applications, ID codes
150 kilowatts (204*PS; 201*bhp) @ 3,500 rpm (50.6kW/l, 68.8PS/l); 450 newton metres (332*lbf·ft) @ 1,400 rpm — Audi B7 A4 (BKN: 11/04-03/09)
155 kilowatts (211*PS; 208*bhp) (52.2kW/l, 71.1PS/l) — Audi Q7 (BUN: 03/06-11/07), Volkswagen Touareg (BUN: 04/06-11/07, CAS: 11/07->)
165 kilowatts (224*PS; 221*bhp) @ 4,200 rpm (55.6kW/l, 75.5PS/l); 450 newton metres (332*lbf·ft) @ 2,000 rpm – Audi C6 A6 (BMK: 04/04-05/06), Volkswagen Phaeton (BMK: 05/04-05/07), Volkswagen Touareg (BKS: 11/04-05/08, CATA: 02/09->), Volkswagen Marine TDI 225-6 (BSP: 02/06->)
171 kilowatts (232*PS; 229*bhp) @ 4,000 rpm (57.6kW/l, 78.2PS/l); 500 newton metres (369*lbf·ft) @ 1,750 rpm, 450 newton metres (332*lbf·ft) between 1,400-3,250 rpm — Audi B7 A4 (ASB: 01/06-03/09), Audi C6 A6 (ASB: 05/06-10/08), Audi D3 A8 (ASB: 01/04->), Audi Q7 (BUG: 03/06-05/08), Volkswagen Phaeton (CARA: 06/07-11/08)
176 kilowatts (239*PS; 236*bhp) @ 4,000 rpm (59.3kW/l, 80.6PS/l); 500 newton metres (369*lbf·ft) @ 1,500–3,000 rpm — Audi B7 A4 (CAP: 11/07-05/08), Audi B8 A4 (CCW: 04/08->, CCL: 11/09->), Audi A5 (CAP: 06/07-05/08, CCW: 03/08->), Audi C6 A6 (CDY: 10/08->), Audi Q5 (CCW: 11/08->), Audi Q7 (CASA: 11/07-05/10, CCMA: 11/08->), Porsche Cayenne (2009->), Volkswagen Phaeton (CARA: 03/07-06/07, CEXA: 06/08-05/10), Volkswagen Touareg (CASA/CASB/CASC: 11/07->)

 

[Latestarter1]

Looks like a nice cut and paste from Wiki.........

Suggest boat owners better served by enjoying boats rather than attempting to design diesel engines unless of course it is their occupation.

Before chief engineer signs off on any project he/she has their eye on impact on shareholder value, one wrong move can easily destroy a career.

Marine engines unlike automotive are generally subject to rigorous failure mode and effect analysis (FMEA) on base engine and on marinisation.

I have no liking for any LDA (Light Duty Automotive) engines in marine applications particularly those with VG turbomachinery, however unless supported by empirical data silly 'dock talk' has zero value in any discussion.

 

[ulyden]

I compared it some years ago with Yanmar BY260hp D4 260 and KAD300.

The engine power is 200kw and consumption is 61.2l/h at full power. This correspond to 256g/kwh. Weight 330dry without gear or drive.

LT's favorite hate KAD300 have 59l/h at 210kw corresponding to 235g/kwh. 576kg with dps. Full power from 5 to 50deg fuel temperature.

The D4 260 has 191kw and 51l/h or 231g/kwh. 260BY has 54l/h 190kw or 238g/kwh 660kg with dph

The KAD300 have a direct driven cam and fuel pump, wet replaceable cylinder liners and can cruise at 95% of rated speed. This is corresponding to 185KW continuous power.

The rest can cruise at 90% speed coresponds to 146KW continuous

The fuel consumption is 8% higher than competitors, even old lumps like KAD300

 

[Latestarter1]

Ulyden,

Happy to discuss until cows come home but no intention of hijacking OP's original thread just for us to bore the nuts off everybody comparing apples with oranges and a few pears thrown in for good measure.

 

[PCUK]

Thanks for all the feedback. I have no quarms about vehicle engines in boats as most of mine have been marinised ex-truck engines. What I like about this is the VW name and with proper regular service it should be OK. It won't be highly loaded as the intended boat is less than three tons. So with Latestarter's partial approval it looks promising.

 

[[2068]]

What I want to know about a given engine is serviceability: Are the maintenance items easy to get to? What is the service schedule? how expensive are those parts? Will the dealer be there for backup?

I trust engineers to get the basic design "right".

 

[ulyden]

Ulyden,

Happy to discuss until cows come home but no intention of hijacking OP's original thread just for us to bore the nuts off everybody comparing apples with oranges and a few pears thrown in for good measure.

Well in this case i was comparing apples and rotten eggs. Sorry!

 

[PCUK]

Good point FP!
As I'll be installing the engine myself I'll make sure everything is accessible and I can't see VW parts being as expensive as Volvo! There is also a worldwide dealer network with two not far from me in Devon.

 

[MapisM]

Well in this case i was comparing apples and rotten eggs. Sorry!

Dunno who's who in this respect...
...What's for sure is that in your post #7, the engine which is supposed to be discussed in this thread is not even mentioned, so the point LS was making is understandable, I reckon.
Besides, you weren't really suggesting to any reader who happen to have a KAD300 powered boat to run her continuously at 3600rpm, were you?
Because if so, I have two words for all of them: good luck.

 

[ulyden]

It was the first engine with 61l/h fuel consumption and 256g/kwh 330kg(kwh wich is 8% above competitors like Yanmar BY and Volvo D4). This was my main point.

I found the data here:

http://www.mercurymarine.com/media/...urve_And_Data_Sheet_TDI_265_BC9520_BC9521.pdf

(The engine power is 200kw and consumption is 61.2l/h at full power. This correspond to 256g/kwh. Weight 330dry without gear or drive.)


If you read the manual on the KAD300 its stated that you can run 200rpm below max engine speed. On the competitors you have to reduce 10%.

By the way Yanmars V8 engine also can cruise at less then 5% speed reduction! Rated 3800rpm Continues 3680rpm.

The reason for this is quite obvious. If the Yanmar BY engine should be sold
with 5 % speed reduction as cruising speed the power had to be redused from
260hp to 230hp. This is a profit loss. To do this on a elektronic engine is easy since speed controll is done in software.

 

[MapisM]

If you read the manual on the KAD300 its stated that you can run 200rpm below max engine speed.

I did read the KAD manuals, having had a couple of KAD-powered boats (though both pre-300, TBH: one 42 and one 43).
And I also tried cruising at -200 rpm, but since I used to keep an eye on the gauges, it never took me more than half an hour to decide that it was better to slow down a bit.
But each to their own... As I said, I can only wish good luck to anyone who decides to trust VP indications for his/her boat.

 

[[2068]]

RMax -200rpm for a newish engine in perfect condition, maybe.
3200rpm for the rest of us

 

[MapisM]

Actually, I bought one of the boats I previously mentioned brand new.
And even then (just after the initial break-in), both engines showed a slight overheating tendency after a long(ish) cruise at 3600 rpm.
At that time, a VP engineer told me not to worry unless the temps reached the red zone. Yeah, right.
The proof of the pudding is that at 3400, all temps were steady, hence less worrying and practically usable.
But in practice, I fully agree that 3200 or so is a much more realistic continuous speed for anyone who cares about the life of those blocks.

 

[ulyden]

How you maintain your engine and cooling system is a not relevant in this tread. I prefer to keep it clean and always test full power to se if temps are stable. Then i know that full power can be used if i need it! The greek way is well known.

Back to this engine. I dont like VTG turbos but is it one or two?

Reading the tecnical spes the recomandation on this is crusing 200rpm below
rated speed 4200rpm. Thats fine. If you go 3200rpm the power will be 130hp or 50% engine load. Sure thats fine.

 

[Portofino]

I did read the KAD manuals, having had a couple of KAD-powered boats (though both pre-300, TBH: one 42 and one 43).
And I also tried cruising at -200 rpm, but since I used to keep an eye on the gauges, it never took me more than half an hour to decide that it was better to slow down a bit.
But each to their own... As I said, I can only wish good luck to anyone who decides to trust VP indications for his/her boat.

Guys -- here,s a paste from the manual - just to clear up KAD x,y,z. " cruising " speed
While we are on the subject they were designed for marine application and as far as iam aware not really used in the automotive world ( happy to be corrected - name the vehicle please?)
That VAG 3.0 TDI in my view looking at the spec belongs in a Porsche hang on its allready there ! Cayenne / Panamera .
Not a boat ! It's got one variable geometry turbo in the V - electronically controlled

Cruising speed
Avoid running at full speed to obtain the best operating economy. We recommend a cruising speed of at least 10% lower than the maximum rpm at full speed (wide open throt- tle). The maximum rpm at full speed can vary depending on choice of propeller, load and sea conditions, etc., but should be within the wide open throttle range.
Wide open throttle range:
KAD/KAMD44P .................................. 3700–3900 rpm KAD/KAMD300 ................................... 3700–3900 rpm
There could be several reasons for the engine failing to reach the wide open throttle range, see the chapter “Trou- bleshooting”. Use a propeller with a greater pitch if the en- gine speed exceeds the wide open throttle range. Get in touch with your Volvo Penta dealer for advice.
Overloading
In all parachute towing, water skiing, etc. full throttle speed must not be less than 3600 rpm.
Towing must only be done

 

[Latestarter1]

Good point FP!
As I'll be installing the engine myself I'll make sure everything is accessible and I can't see VW parts being as expensive as Volvo! There is also a worldwide dealer network with two not far from me in Devon.

Can you tell us more about vessel engine will be fitted to, i.e. performance planing, fast displacement etc etc. Duty cycle, predicted annual hours?

With exception of Volvo D4 there are only really two kids on the block, Mercruiser 300 TDI and Yanmar 6BY so choice is simple. Given that Yanmar BY has been an unmitigated disaster.

Many changes to this engine since VW, Marine sold and supported by Finning, not sure what you refer to by Worldwide dealer network, if your to your local Mercruiser (Barrus) dealer is franchised for UK only. Before purchasing you need to check that dealer has been on correct courses, have tooling, parts support on the shelf etc. VW engine WAS able to be supported with DIY Vag Com a real plus, suspect this is no longer the case, however you need to find out.

The VW Marine motors used to have real nice feature of built in elecric lube change pump, do not know if this is still the case.

All accounts including MBY suggest that when compared with other engines in this power node V6 is a rocket ship as stated before, Cummins never got around to doing the V8 before the devorce.

If you intend to USE this engine suspect life will be good, if you want to spend hours putzing around at trolling speeds be prepared to have VG turbo sooting issues.

When I come up for air I will give my thoughts on engine life Vs engine loading, expect this will prevoke exponents of 'pedal to the metal operation' to dive in without spoiling your thread