Any Spade anchor users? Worth the cash?

[noelex]

Edit -Noelex - have you ever used an alloy Spade in order to validate your comments. I have used our alloy Spade extensively and it works as well as the steel version in a host of substrates, including medium weed and stony/pebbly seabeds (that defeats a roll bar anchor as they are prone to clogging, yes I have tried them as well). I think we need to get your negative comments into proportion.

No, I have never owned a steel or alloy Spade. I base my comments mainly on seeing how these anchors perform underwater.

Australia does not have any hard sand seabeds which is why I think you are not seeing the problem. On the plus side, in Australia most anchor designs work well and the soft sand makes for some fantastic beaches.

I am certainly not the only one to make the observation about the aluminium Spade. See Maine Sail's comments below. He has owned both the steel and alloy versions:

BINGO!!! I actually own both and A80 and an S80. Back when Alain was still alive I began conversing with him over poor setting in hard substrates. He told me I was full of rubbish. I then made a very long and detailed video of me setting the A80 in a hard bottom. Six tries, no set all on video and done with perfect execution. I sent the video to Alain...

A few weeks later I had an S80 on my door step at no charge. Went back the the same exact spot and the S80 set within inches 15 times in a row. Put the A80 back on, no set..... Alain was a goo guy but his "tip weight proportion" theory did not apply well to light weigh anchors like the A80 under water. . I wish it had because I really like the light weight of the A80.. Once set you can not tell the two apart, as would be expected, but my the S80 sets consistently better in harder substrates than my A80. The S80 has just enough weight to make its hard substrate setting better than the A80.

The S80 is a great anchor I would not buy the A80 again... The S80 is EVERYTHING Alain said it was......

I own many anchors and the S80 is right up there with the best I own...

The anchor tests have concluded the same:
The Novenber 2009 Yachting Monthly test concluded of the alloy Spade "Not great on hard seabed".

They also noted in the 2003 tests, "we found that it had trouble setting in harder types of bottom."

Even Spade themselves only recomend the aluminium version as a 'secondary' not primary anchor.

I think the OP was probably considering the steel version and none of this applies to that model. It is an excellent anchor.

 

[J Neeves]

Noelex I have viewed your images and without exception I would conclude that your anchor does not perform well in hard seabeds as without exception it never completely disappears. There is always a bit of the roll bar protruding. Consequently if I were to draw conclusions from your images I would not be buying your model. To me a good anchor is one that when loaded disappears and takes 2-3 metres of chain with it. Consequently if I were to take images of good anchors - all you would see is chain (and it would be impossible to know which anchor was being used)

Sadly images might be lovely but they tell nothing of the skill of the operator. I also note that the seabeds in your images are boringly similar. No mud, no coral, no weed. There is nothing like using the anchor in an 800nm cruise and anchoring in multitude of anchorages to crystallise conclusions

I think you need to take an A100 or an S100, or larger, out in a dinghy and you might then see the advantage of the alloy Spade. Maybe also take an alloy Spade and try it in medium weed seabed and compare it with a roll bar anchor. Maybe test it in a seabed with lumps of coral or lots of loose stones and rocks and compare it with a roll bar anchor.

If the alloy Spade is defeated in hard seabeds it excels in so many other environments as does the steel Spade and they both win hands down in weed and loose rock anchorages and the alloy Spade is 50% of the weight of its steel equivalent.

I also note that the Spade is now the standard anchor on the new RNLI Shannon lifeboats - and if there is a critical and demanding customer I cannot think of any one more difficult to please.

I like to see a little balance in the negative comments that are made - not these one sided marketing scripts. All anchors are a compromise, there is no perfect design and anyone requesting information on anchor choice needs to know what the compromises are, not the glowing testimonials omitting the weaknesses nor the dismissive comments (based on anecdotal information).

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

NTo me a good anchor is one that when loaded disappears and takes 2-3 metres of chain with it. Consequently if I were to take images of good anchors - all you would see is chain (and it would be impossible to know which anchor was being used)

To me a good anchor is one which stays put.

Why is it a problem if the anchor isn't dragging?

 

[J Neeves]

To me a good anchor is one which stays put.

Why is it a problem if the anchor isn't dragging?

When we used a CQR and then a copy CQR and much later when we used Delta (in comparison with Rocna et al) we found that the CQRs and the Delta when set as well as we could get them always were visible (commonly shank, sometimes part of the fluke). They also had a propensity to drag. When we set the Rocna et al in the same seabed, similar location, and set the same way the anchors disappeared and did not drag. When we half set, a Rocna et al, so part of the anchor (roll bar, if they have one, and shank still visible) then in a change of load direction, say a wind change of 90 degrees, we find the deeply set anchors shuffle round but the half set anchors can pull out (they fall over on their side, as they have limited or no seabed support for the shank) and then have need to reset (by themselves). Rocna et al will reset by themselves unless they catch something in their toe (seaweed or an old towel) not something that is totally reliable at 2am. Our experience with the CQR was - it never reset by itself and the Delta somewhere in between.

The suggestion is that a deeply set anchor is more secure than one that is not deeply set.

et al: Mantus, Spade (alloy and steel) Supreme, Kobra, Excel - all of the same size (except alloy 50% weight) for our cat.

Jonathan

 

[Storyline]

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When we half set, a Rocna et al, so part of the anchor (roll bar, if they have one, and shank still visible) then in a change of load direction, say a wind change of 90 degrees, we find the deeply set anchors shuffle round but the half set anchors can pull out (they fall over on their side, as they have limited or no seabed support for the shank) and then have need to reset (by themselves). Rocna et al will reset by themselves unless they catch something in their toe (seaweed or an old towel) not something that is totally reliable at 2am. Our experience with the CQR was - it never reset by itself and the Delta somewhere in between.

The suggestion is that a deeply set anchor is more secure than one that is not deeply set.

et al: Mantus, Spade (alloy and steel) Supreme, Kobra, Excel - all of the same size (except alloy 50% weight) for our cat.

Jonathan

That is an interesting observation and will change our anchoring habits. If we are expecting a significant wind shift with strengthening winds we will try to anchor to the forecast direction. However sometimes this is not possible if there are several other boats all lying to the prevailing wind. So what we have been doing with our Rocna is to set it but not deeply (no more than half revs) and then rely on it resetting when the stronger breeze arrives from the new direction. Your post suggests it would have a better chance of resetting if it was buried deeply even though not in the 'right' direction.

 

[noelex]

Your post suggests it would have a better chance of resetting if it was buried deeply even though not in the 'right' direction.

Yes +1

If set it well, in reasonable holding ground, a good anchor like the Rocna will rotate or "shuffle" around.

In light wind I have tried setting the anchor the "wrong" way so that it aligned for a forecast future (strong) wind direction. The boat will drift back downwind, but if the wind is only light the anchor will stay in the direction it was set in. The advantage is the anchor does not have to move with the new wind direction.

However, at least on my boat, the set is generally poorer. and I have mostly given up this practice.

Anchors like to set and initially dig in while being pulled in a nice steady direction. This is hard to do upwind or across the wind. As soon as the boat stops moving backwards the control of the rudder is largely lost. So with prop walk and the effect of any crosswind the boat transcribes an arc as you are applying the setting force. The setting force is not in a straight line.

The set is worse. The end result is better if the a anchor is set well conventionally and allowed to rotate around to the new wind direction.

On a cat or a boat with a bow thruster you may be able to overcome these limitations. It is also possible to set the anchor in a series of jerks and here you have got some rudder control, but if you have an anchor that rotates well staying set and buried it is not necessary. Plus you get some strange looks from everyone else in the anchorage

 

[J Neeves]

Most wind shifts are slow, it is not due North and 2 minutes later due East - the wind can do this, thunderstorm or bullets in an anchorage but usually as a front passes the wind takes time to move round.

A 'half set' anchor can shuffle round in a slowly veering wind, a fully set anchor will more reliably shuffle round. Its about timing and if the new wind develops quickly then the half set anchor has a greater chance of 'falling over' and the fully set anchor be able to shuffle round (quickly) but stay set. But on the basis that we look at worst case scenarios (and they happen at 2am) we always set the anchor fully and as deeply as we can for the existing wind. Its just a forecast - not a guarantee. The forecast might be 'out' as result of something unforetold by the forecaster or more likely, local conditions - so we set the anchor based on what we have at the time.

It depends on the size of your engine but a rough rule of thumb was 10hp at full revs can tension the rode at about 100kg, so 30hp 300kg. We measured this with a load cell - and its about right (its a bit more complex because of the catenary) Its a bit crude and will depend on the scope and your prop - but 300kg is a lot of tension - much more than your anchor will be subject to - if you are using snubbers. So if you set at full revs (we set at 3:1, less catenary, if the anchor does not set less to retrieve and if it sets at 3:1 it will be better at 5:1, just chain) and then use a snubber your anchor should shuffle round when the wind shift occurs.

The other thing to consider - we all realise the importance of a good snubber. it takes the load off the anchor and the windlass. If the snubber is doing its task correctly then the load on an anchor, with snubber, is not much. If you power set it to 150kg tension (so half revs in my 30hp example) this is a possible load on your anchor, even with the snubber. This load will not set it more deeply - but this load at 90 degress can pull it over. If you set to 300kg - your snubber will ensure the anchor is never subject to that load and will thus not set any more deeply - but will allow it to shuffle round.

If there are bullets then a fully set anchor will cope much better than a half set anchor and the latter might pull out (and need to re-set itself).

As well as 90 degree wind shifts we did some more work on larger wind shifts (or tide) and any swift wind shift greater than 150 degrees (or a 180 degree tide change) can cause the anchor to simply somersault. Anchors are designed to be effective in a specific direction they are not very effective pulled the other way. Anchors with slots, if they are being used will somersault at about 120 degrees (actually pull out backwards and then somersault). Many tides are not an issue, they are gentle, but some tides are pretty aggressive (I believe the River Mersey, downstream of the locked marina at Liverpool, can be 5 knots add some wind and you have a somersaulting situation). This is a good time to use an anchor alarm!

Jonathan

edit, just seen Noelex post (posts crossed). I have heard of the concept of setting the anchor, making sure that it is firmly 'attached' and then to set further - moving forward and then taking a run at the enchor, stern first - the idea being the momentum will tension the rode much more than simply using the engine. I confess we have never had the courage to do this, the potential loads could be quite high - even though the concept is sound. But you do need to 'set' the anchor without the snubber.

 

[noelex]

I have heard of the concept of setting the anchor, making sure that it is firmly 'attached' and then to set further - moving forward and then taking a run at the enchor, stern first - the idea being the momentum will tension the rode much more than simply using the engine. I confess we have never had the courage to do this, the potential loads could be quite high - even though the concept is sound. But you do need to 'set' the anchor without the snubber.

Yes you do need a bit of courage. The loads can get quite high if you get it wrong.

It is not a technique I routenly use. Anchors prefer to set with nice slow steady increase in force, although most new generation anchors in a reasonable substrate will set if the boats momentum is used to provide an abrupt setting force.

I think it is important to take the load off the anchor winch. A chain stopper will do this, but even if you have one I would recommend using a snubber (if you have an all chain rode). The stretch will help spread the load over a slightly longer time frame. Especially with the new generation anchors that can set in a very short distance. A sudden stop can break things quickly. Many people who use this technique will repeat it a few times with gradually increasing force.

 

[noelex]

If you have not seen an anchor rotate, or shuffle to a new wind direction underwater this is a shot of my Mantus anchor rotating about 160 degrees. This anchor rotates very well remaining almost level during the whole process. You can see that other than rotating it does not move. There are a couple of stones that have been placed on the bottom to act as a reference mark.

The fluke and shank are completely buried with only the roll bar visible.

 

[NormanS]

Our experience with the CQR was - it never reset by itself and the Delta somewhere in between.



Jonathan

Really? I used a CQR type, actually a fabricated 140lb plough, for 30 years, and I think I can say that I never had any bother with it resetting in a wind shift. We always anchor overnight, so the anchor just gets trusted to do its work all by itself.

Some on here would like to make out that anchoring is terribly complicated, - it isn't. Just have adequate gear, choose an appropriate position, drop the thing, and pay out enough chain. If in doubt, pull back, checking transits. Job done.

 

[doris]

Really? I used a CQR type, actually a fabricated 140lb plough, for 30 years, and I think I can say that I never had any bother with it resetting in a wind shift. We always anchor overnight, so the anchor just gets trusted to do its work all by itself.

Some on here would like to make out that anchoring is terribly complicated, - it isn't. Just have adequate gear, choose an appropriate position, drop the thing, and pay out enough chain. If in doubt, pull back, checking transits. Job done.

Not surprised, a 140lb plough, is a tad more than most of us could rustle up!

 

[NormanS]

Not surprised, a 140lb plough, is a tad more than most of us could rustle up!

Horses for courses. It was a big boat. Now with a 36ft ketch, and a 20kg (genuine) Bruce, same conditions apply.

 

[GHA]

Most wind shifts are slow, it is not due North and 2 minutes later due East - the wind can do this, thunderstorm or bullets in an anchorage but usually as a front passes the wind takes time to move round

The worst conditions I have been in always seemed to be islands with gust coming off the hills, one particularly nasty night in Valle Gran Ray,La Gomera had gusts up to 60Kn from all directions, boat would shoot off across the anchorage to get jarred to a halt at the other end of the scope. Nasty. in comparison even a 30kn steadish wind was fairly benign. No idea what the resetting anchor looked like but if held it's position.

edit, just seen Noelex post (posts crossed). I have heard of the concept of setting the anchor, making sure that it is firmly 'attached' and then to set further - moving forward and then taking a run at the enchor, stern first - the idea being the momentum will tension the rode much more than simply using the engine. I confess we have never had the courage to do this, the potential loads could be quite high - even though the concept is sound. But you do need to 'set' the anchor without the snubber.

That's what I did with an underpowered elderly engine. 3" solid steel samson post so nothing was going to go bang. New gen's set so quick it's a bit like going over the handlebars on a bike. Very reassuring.

 

[J Neeves]

I'd agree with Noelex - if you are going to take a run at an anchor to have the increased momentum set the anchor then using something to take the load of the winch is a good idea (unless you have a steel samson post which would suffice and still takes the load off the windlass). But using your anchor snubber would be a waste of time, all the energy (or most of it) will simply be taken up by the stretch in the snubber - after all that's why we use them. The only way to power set is to remove elasticity and to ensure you get the chain as straight as possible.

Edit On shuffling round - we have found that the most dependable anchors to shuffle are the anchors with ballast chamber protruding below the sole for example Ultra, Spade and Kobra. And maybe like the Vulcan. When, and if, I am able to test out the Vulcan it might be possible to determine if this is the protrusion or the placement of the weight, close edit.

On CQRs, if they were that reliable then Rocna, Spade, Manson et al would not have a market and CQRs would have reasonable second hand value. And if it, or they, are so reliable why change to a Bruce - it all lacks logic.

Last time I went over the handlebars - it was anything but reassuring

Jonathan

 

[G12]

Very happy with mine, sets well without fail and has never dragged. The newer ones are supplied with a drilled bolt and an R pin so the nut can't come off. I actually ditched the R pin and used some monel seizing wire instead to make it tidier.
The bolt doesn't take the anchor load.

 

[J Neeves]

'Newer' ones? - ours has the same 'R' pin and must be 6 years old now. The 'R' pin did not look too secure, we too discarded and used a split pin.

And after 6 years no sign of corrosion of our A80.

Jonathan

 

[G12]

'Newer' ones? - ours has the same 'R' pin and must be 6 years old now. The 'R' pin did not look too secure, we too discarded and used a split pin.

And after 6 years no sign of corrosion of our A80.

Jonathan

The originals were shipped without any secondary retention for the nut. I'm not sure of the date of the modification.

 

[Storyline]

.....
edit, just seen Noelex post (posts crossed). I have heard of the concept of setting the anchor, making sure that it is firmly 'attached' and then to set further - moving forward and then taking a run at the enchor, stern first - the idea being the momentum will tension the rode much more than simply using the engine. I confess we have never had the courage to do this, the potential loads could be quite high - even though the concept is sound. But you do need to 'set' the anchor without the snubber.

Earl R Hinz in his book 'The complete book of anchoring and mooring' suggests this technique.

 

[noelex]

On shuffling round - we have found that the most dependable anchors to shuffle are the anchors with ballast chamber protruding below the sole for example Ultra, Spade and Kobra. And maybe like the Vulcan. When, and if, I am able to test out the Vulcan it might be possible to determine if this is the protrusion or the placement of the weight,

The ability of an anchor to rotate around to new direction of pull while remaining buried is a very important feature that has not received enough attention.

There is a widespread belief that anchors usually respond to a change in direction of pull by breaking out rotating and then resetting. This does happen, but if set normally in a reasonable substrate the better anchors will invariable shuffle. All anchors become a little less stable as they rotate, but there is vast difference between the good and bad designs, which is obvious watching them underwater.

The best anchors at rotating are the concave roll bar anchors. This is one reason why I like this design of anchor. The worst are the the Danforth and Fortress anchors. Unfortunately, with these designs the long stock can occasionally dig in as the anchor develops a list. This pivots or corkscrews the anchor out. The convex plough anchors like the Delta and Kobra are in between. They tend to develop a significant list. In hard substrate this will mean one fluke is largely exposed. They will level out once the new direction of pull is established but are vulnerable to a stronger gust while rotating and do occasionally breakout. On most occasions they will reset without the owner knowing.

A second problem with the convex plough anchor is that a lot of their holding power is achieved by heaping up substrate in front of the fluke. When the direction of pull changes they often travel several metres in the new direction before heaping up enough material to reestablish sufficient holding. This makes them vulnerable to debris, or patches of weed, stone etc that lie in the new direction of pull. The better anchors will pivot almost on one spot.

The spade is good and usually rotates in competent fashion. The Ultra I have only seen change direction on two occasions so it is too early to comment. While the performance was not great on both occasions the anchor was on a short scope and not set very deep. I spent some time in the water watching this Ultra gradually rotate around to a 180 degrees wind shift in light wind. I took a series of photos.

This is one from the sequence with the anchor about half of the way around. You can see it has developed quite a high list. The puffs of sand are caused by the anchor rotating as the photo was taken. While it did not break out this is an example of a reasonably poor rotation. In this case the shallow initial set and short scope were hopefully more to blame than the anchor design.

Hopefully discussions like this will raise awareness about the ability of an anchor to rotate competently. When selecting a primary anchor it is an important characteristic.

 

[J Neeves]

Beware the salesman whose patter is to rubbish the opposition.

Margan's Cloud made the comment that they were uncomfortable with the few but increasing numbers of reports of roll bar anchors clogging and being unable to reset because the flukes were unable to perform. But pointing out Morgan's Cloud concerns spoils a good story.

In soft mud, the Fortress and Danforth will set - evidence suggests no other anchors can compete with the hold of a fluke anchor in such a seabed. A well set Fortress will not need to shuffle - the big complaint of a well set Fortress is the difficulty of retrieval.

Anchors are a compromise, you need more than one design to cater for the cross section of seabeds and good seamanship includes knowing and accepting the strengths and weakness of each anchor that you carry. To suggest one anchor is perfect is blatantly wrong, some are more versatile, like the Spade - but none perfect.

Its a personal view, and not shared by many, but if you are cruising and using a cross section of seabeds in which to anchor then reliance on one design lacks logic.

But on a more positive note - no insurance company has any statistics that any one, or number, of anchor designs is any more of an insurance risk than any other(s). I asked Pantaenius. Though they had no statistics on sleepless nights either

Jonathan

edit I think I note that the swivel is incorrectly attached to the shank of the Ultra. The ABS certificate for the Ultra was awarded without the swivel and it seems unlikely the swivel adds to the performance, as attached. To suggest that this images is in any way typical is wrong and possibly grossly and unfairly maligns Ultra. It might illustrate that an anchor should be power set - but to suggest this reflects on the Ultra is blatantly wrong. end edit