Any members here with Perkins 6.354's??

[Jonrob]

I also had water pump jockey pulley bearings sieze. new bearings can be obtained at G.M.S. at Medway Bridge Marina. I took the old jockey wheels to my local car repair shop, and he pressed out the old bearings & pressed in the new in 10 mins. Job done.

 

[burgundyben]

I also had water pump jockey pulley bearings sieze. new bearings can be obtained at G.M.S. at Medway Bridge Marina. I took the old jockey wheels to my local car repair shop, and he pressed out the old bearings & pressed in the new in 10 mins. Job done.

See! That's why we love our old Perks!

You wont hear of people doing that to these fancy modern common rail jobbies.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Didn't even need to go that far, someone had packed ball cage with grease which had gone hard. An hour in some paraffin, relubricate and job done. Could have fitted new bearings but there's some life in the others yet. There is not much pressure on the wheel to turn it or you overload the water pump bearings and that's more of a pain.

Out of interest, what do they sound like with silencers? I have simply several feet of 4" exhaust hose between turbocharger and the Great British Public and the sound on the few times I have opened her up in London is quite rorty!

 

[burgundyben]

Out of interest, what do they sound like with silencers? I have simply several feet of 4" exhaust hose between turbocharger and the Great British Public and the sound on the few times I have opened her up in London is quite rorty!

I've no idea, I have 3.5 inch exhausts, straight through, from turbo to transom is about 6 ft.

Not too loud, lovely gurgle at 1800.

 

[moonraker 36]

robhom..
you may find alittle bit of usefull infomation about the perkins 6354 on the dutch moonraker 36(350) web site..

 

[Scarron]

Fruity eh

I've no idea, I have 3.5 inch exhausts, straight through, from turbo to transom is about 6 ft.

Not too loud, lovely gurgle at 1800.

I can confirm that, Playtime sounds wonderful and cruises beautifully at 1800.

Thanks for the run out last evening, just what the Doc ordered!

 

[Latestarter1]

James May is the only one of that lot that is worth having on TV.

I forgot you had HT's, not sure where your drain will be. IIRC its a tapered BSP type thread, most likely well siezed into the block.

Latestarter1 will know.

Another lumber!

Perkins followed good engineering standards, unlike Ford, plug would have been brass, so no problem with siezeure.

However do not always assume all pipe threads on a 6.354 are BSP, Perkins used U.S. NPT thread on many pipe fittings. Very similar to BSP but only at one size are they exactly the same, go in about three turns look good, then leak.

 

[burgundyben]

Another lumber!

Perkins followed good engineering standards, unlike Ford, plug would have been brass, so no problem with siezeure.

However do not always assume all pipe threads on a 6.354 are BSP, Perkins used U.S. NPT thread on many pipe fittings. Very similar to BSP but only at one size are they exactly the same, go in about three turns look good, then leak.

I had an idea you would mention NPT.

Yes, I recall my block drain plugs are brass.

Might see you at the BBQ this weekend?

 

[Bobobolinsky]

NPT are the same TPI as BSP between 3/8" and 3/4". A couple of degrees difference on the thread form, makes no difference to a taper thread. 1" to 2" is the problem, half a thread per inch difference. One guy did not want me to bring a van load of gear on the ferry, so would only pay for the car. When the job was halfway complete he really whinged when the cost of the dies to complete the job, was more than the difference of bringing the van

 

[Latestarter1]

NPT are the same TPI as BSP between 3/8" and 3/4". A couple of degrees difference on the thread form, makes no difference to a taper thread. 1" to 2" is the problem, half a thread per inch difference. One guy did not want me to bring a van load of gear on the ferry, so would only pay for the car. When the job was halfway complete he really whinged when the cost of the dies to complete the job, was more than the difference of bringing the van

BSP uses the Whitworth thread with an angle of 55° and a 1 in 16 taper. It is not interchangeable with the American NPT thread, though at the 1/2" and 3/4" size, they both have 14 threads per inch.

Problems arise when threading a NPT male thread form into a BSP female straight thread form. The 1/16”, 1/8”, 1/4”, and 3/8” sizes have a dissimilar pitch, which causes a misalignment of the threads. The flank angles of the threads are also different between NPT and BSP. NPT has a 60° thread where the BSP has a 55° thread.

The 1/2” and 3/4” sizes in the NPT and BSP are both 14 TPI and are so close they are within die tolerance and the NPT will engage the BSP fairly well. Although these threads are the same pitch and engage well there are still issues with the thread form. The thread angles and the crest and root tolerances being different will allow spiral leakage.

Believe me without a load of gloop they leak.

 

[RobHom]

robhom..
you may find alittle bit of usefull infomation about the perkins 6354 on the dutch moonraker 36(350) web site..

Could you post an actual link? I tried "googling" it and mostly got James Bond movies.... Thanks!!

Also, if I remember correctly...one person asked what the wet manifolds and wet elbows cost: $1750.00 USD for the wet exhaust manifolds, and the wet elbows were $936.00 USD each.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

BSP uses the Whitworth thread with an angle of 55° and a 1 in 16 taper. It is not interchangeable with the American NPT thread, though at the 1/2" and 3/4" size, they both have 14 threads per inch.

Problems arise when threading a NPT male thread form into a BSP female straight thread form. The 1/16”, 1/8”, 1/4”, and 3/8” sizes have a dissimilar pitch, which causes a misalignment of the threads. The flank angles of the threads are also different between NPT and BSP. NPT has a 60° thread where the BSP has a 55° thread.

The 1/2” and 3/4” sizes in the NPT and BSP are both 14 TPI and are so close they are within die tolerance and the NPT will engage the BSP fairly well. Although these threads are the same pitch and engage well there are still issues with the thread form. The thread angles and the crest and root tolerances being different will allow spiral leakage.

Believe me without a load of gloop they leak.

Sounds like a minefield, and no easy way to check you have the right one. I'm not often an advocate of ISO metric but this sounds like one of those times Despite my engineering starting with Rolls Royce years back I admit that if I need a bolt to fit a female thread if it does up then that's probably the right one. If it leaked afterwards I would be looking at ptfe tape, gorilla snot or a fibre washer, or a combination of the above!

 

[moonraker 36]

http://www.moonraker.dk/eng_index.htm

try this rob.. but i aint no tecno wizz..

if you go into service.drawing/plan's you get info on the exhaust manifold..
and hand book give's you a workshop manual for the engine's..

 

[andrewbarker]

We ran these engines in many, many agricultural applications working really hard for 10,000 hours or more service lives. Fabulous engine.
The standard oil was/is 10/30 multi.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

If anyone needs a scanned page from the 6354 manual I have one. PM if need be.

 

[Latestarter1]

Sounds like a minefield, and no easy way to check you have the right one. I'm not often an advocate of ISO metric but this sounds like one of those times Despite my engineering starting with Rolls Royce years back I admit that if I need a bolt to fit a female thread if it does up then that's probably the right one. If it leaked afterwards I would be looking at ptfe tape, gorilla snot or a fibre washer, or a combination of the above!

The 6.354 was designed with an eye an the U.S delivery truck market at the end of the 50's and White Truck Corporation (Now Volvo Truck Corp) actually assembled it for a time in the U.S. as well as Perkins Mexico which would account for some U.S. input on threads. In reality the thread stuff is not a big issue.

In its time the 6.354 was a darn good motor. Base design was a little screwed up by being length constrained (It had to be similar length to big block V8) which was standard in U.S. delivery trucks. Chasing the overall length resulted in little water between the cylinders and the screwy jackshaft fuel pump drive. Crank is pretty much a carryover from P6, all features which have restricted potential power output, but it did the job. Throughout 60's 70's and early 80's was a first class motor. The final Dot 4 engine was an extremely good engine, exept marinised Ti versions for reasons mentioned in earlier post.

However as motors are getting very old now and parts becoming difficult, for example HT lube scavenge pumps and many parts for hydraulically governed DPA pump, I would certainly advise anybody against purchasing a vessel with an HT6.354. Sorry if this offends, but life moves on.

 

[moonraker 36]

why are parts hard to find?
i must add mit i hav'nt needed to source any yet as the engine's have had a full overhaul..one is counter rotating that may cause me problem's to find parts for..
their's another boat in the same marina as me just had his 6354 recon'd aswell no problems at all getting the parts for the job..
and their loads and loads of secondhand bit's..
yes they are an old engine..but a bloody good one at that..
i've said it before look at other peoples post's and see how many newer diesel owner's are asking for advise because this dont work and that dont work..

 

[Latestarter1]

why are parts hard to find?
i must add mit i hav'nt needed to source any yet as the engine's have had a full overhaul..one is counter rotating that may cause me problem's to find parts for..
their's another boat in the same marina as me just had his 6354 recon'd aswell no problems at all getting the parts for the job..
and their loads and loads of secondhand bit's..
yes they are an old engine..but a bloody good one at that..
i've said it before look at other peoples post's and see how many newer diesel owner's are asking for advise because this dont work and that dont work..

#1 Probably the most significant is the decision by Delpi two years ago to withdraw all parts support for the early hydraulically governed DPA. Still stuff in the system so impact not yet apparent, but parts will soon dry up. I have done extensive test work with DPA pumps and ULSD, there are some work arounds, but quite simply when the pump was designed back in the 1950's nobody ever considered the concept, and the tolerances in the rotor head are not well suited to running on ULSD.

#2 I was quite specific about HT6.354. Manifolds have finite life due to being raw water cooled and come out at about a grand each and are total nausea to replace on HT engine. The lube scavenge pump for HT's has been unavailable for some time as well as the unique parts for contra rotating engines.

#3 Some very old engines are now suffering from porous blocks.

Having had panic calls from people having suffered catastropic manifold failures when on passage and several spoilt holidays I can only speak from experience that engines however good they once were, eventually become a money pit.

Overseen four HT6.354 repowers two with Cummins B Series one with Yanmar 6Lp and another with Yanmar Lh. Cummins B can be a little tight as it is a vertical engine of similar dimensions to Perkins however with down angle box it will go. Big bonus with Cummins B is that it was designed by an ex Perkins man to do everything a 6.354 could do, but much better and with all major components in the same general location. Yanmar 6Lp two valve went in easy and the little single engine repower with the Lh was a dream installation.

Modern engines are fundamentally more reliable and durable than older engines as manufacturing capabilities have improved in leaps and bounds over the last thirty years.

99% of owners in trouble are victims of diabolically inept engine installations, poor maintainence or in a very few cases of their own stupidity.

 

[burgundyben]

99% of owners in trouble are victims of diabolically inept engine installations, poor maintainence or in a very few cases of their own stupidity.

Paul - we need to see the picture of the upside down turbo!

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

For Jedi a repower is pretty much not economically viable. A ball park figure suggested that it worked if the actual marinised engines themselves were free, otherwise not. Of course, its made more complex by my HT engines, and V boxes into the bargain. I briefly wondered about some four pot Ford turbos, but by the time you have sourced gearbox adapters or new boxes and dealt with different speeds for the V boxes too it looks uninviting. I'd be pleased to be proved wrong and for river pottering a pair of 90 HP XUDs out of Peugeots would be fine, just no grunt when wanted.

I must admit that manifold life is starting to make me wonder, I've already had the water outlet spigot on the P/H engine go. Plumbers Mait is doing sterling work there. But a grand a side for replacements is unappealing to say the least. Unaffordable is also true:-( I take some comfort in the fact that the paperwork that came with the boat mentions a complete rebuild of both sides by Golden Arrow in the late 1980s (but not why...)

Naturally, prior to it becoming apparent that I may need one, DPA pumps showed up not infrequently on Ebay and went for £50-75, look in agricultural stuff rather than mairine.

I agree with the comment on modern engines being better made and in theory more reliable but I would also add that older ones were built with an expectation of repair and adjustment of parts, rather than scrap and replace. For no easily justifiable reason the green lump in the previous boat had no soul, it just worked. Our Perkins have names, Luke and Leia and I admit I talk to them now and again. Mostly along the lines of "don't smoke"! Of course, much of the possible adjust and repair options seem to require the things to come out of the boat, but that's another issue! At least it would be easy to get at them.