Any liveaboards on light-weight racer/cruisers?

[demonboy]

Any liveaboards on a racer/cruiser?

OK, I won't go into the reasons why I am looking into this right now but I have been looking at buying a light-weight racer/cruiser as a possible liveaboard (e.g. 10 ton 14m). Currently I have a well-found Oyster 435, who has proved her mettle on a number of occasions, so I'm trying to get my head around the idea of living on a lighter boat in similar (liveaboard) conditions. It would be a round-the-world liveaboard.

My main concerns are things like bolt-on keel (as opposed to encapsulated), bigger draft, no skeg, less rigging, deck-stepped mast, thinner fibreglass... and of course the wear and tear on a lighter boat versus the solid build of our current boat.

I'm not looking for a debate as to whether this is the right or wrong thing to do, I'm interested to hear from any liveaboard who lives on such a boat and how they find it. I'm especially interested to hear from anyone who used to have a bluewater cruiser like ours and then swapped it for a light racer/cruiser.

 

[geem]

Why? I have just gone the other way

 

[ribrage]

Jamie

Speak to Chris on Tomahawk - Same forum name on here - he lives on a fast tri or catamaran with his wife - was in Northern spain last I heard - having done 18 knots across the channel (i heard) why the change of thoughts toward live aboard boat ? having read most of your blog Esper has been pretty good - could you sell her where you are now ?

 

[tri39]

Maybe you should consider a multihull!! Altho mine contains all the tools I used to build her.
Most long distance cruisers become overweight motorsailers eventually, even cats!
But a boat that sails well in light airs does save you carrying a huge weight of diesel.

 

[geem]

Maybe you should consider a multihull!! Altho mine contains all the tools I used to build her.
Most long distance cruisers become overweight motorsailers eventually, even cats!
But a boat that sails well in light airs does save you carrying a huge weight of diesel.

I struggled to keep my cat light enough hence the swap to a large monohull that will take all my gear without lose of speed. Still love multihull s though

 

[TQA]

There is a blog somewhere about a family circumnavigating ? on a lightweight Farr? racer.

I seem to remember they were in South Africa earlier this year.

 

[michael_w]

2003-2005 I did an Atlantic Circuit in my Contessa 33. Please note, not a 32! The 33 is a much whizzier Rob Humphrys cruiser racer. Never was there a worry about her construction, She was fast. Great fun sailing upwind past plodding cruisers, forced to motorsail. You could always find her in the anchorage, as the only boat with a 7/8 rig complete with jumpers.

Main drawback, was that she was always a bit overloaded. In full ocean crossing mode she was carrying about 800kg more than when setup for local sailing. Empty weight was 4250 kg. Also, things were a bit spartan. No hot water, no watermaker, no heating.

 

[blush2]

Hi - we have taken a 40foot boat with an IRC weight of 5.9 tons for a year covering 5.5k miles. Bear in mind - condensation ( we even had ice on deck in the Algarve ) and slamming - its shock loads that will break your boat. ( 4 days of that from La Palma to the Azores )
OK a lightweight racer will be minimalist so tanks will be small - ours are 80 litre each - is there room to add auxiliaries ? The mast may well be thin and very tweekable we have running backstays which are pesky however with a 3/4 fraction we had a main made that reduces sail to the fraction and that takes 3m out of the sail and gives you an effective masthead rig as both runners can be on and left.
The interior is likely to have opportunity for the DIY enthusiast !!!!! so you can probably do what you like to it. Ours was spartan inside without doors headlinings etc
Space for a larger battery bank needs to be looked for and will it be possible to fit 'other' charging means.

On the + side and assuming that in ocean X ing you can download GRIBs etc if you see a weather system coming that you dont like you can use the boats speed to get clear and you will be able to sail in light airs. We were making good progress to the Canaries with only 6kts wind on the beam.
We met people who had done a circumnavigation in a Swan 45 which is no lightweight but no slouch either - if I had the dosh thats where I would go but have enjoyed the work and creative mods to ours. Hope this helps, boat is no the Hamble if you are near / wish to see / chat.

Mark

 

[demonboy]

Thanks for the replies. To explain a bit more, this issue is more to do with circumstances, though performance may be a consideration if we buy another boat. Our boat can be slow in light winds and I do get frustrated when lighter, faster boats are sailing and we're motoring. Dunno about you lot but I've been surprised by the amount of motoring we've done over the last seven years, I'd really hoped to have done more sailing, but I know this is common with a lot of liveaboards on heavier blue-water cruisers like ours. I sometimes wonder if we should have bought a Nauticat! And tri39, whilst I'm not looking at multihulls, carrying extra diesel has always been a pain in the rectum for us. The amount of jerry cans we've accumulated really annoys me. On our last trip the last 500 miles was in very light airs. We needed the extra diesel to see us through but a lighter boat could have sailed us there.

Ian, it would break my heart to sell Esper, and I need to find out how realistic it would be to sell her in Malaysia, but we may have to. I'm just pre-empting that possibility.

Michael, when you overload a light boat, what are the issues? Is it just performance or are there structural issues too? We carry so much $h!t on Esper I think we'd find it hard to become more spartan. More to the point, when I think about the situations we've been in, the amount of fishing nets we've sailed over, the tight coral anchorages we've navigated our way through, the monsoon squalls we've had to endure, I worry that a lighter boat would have broken by now.

 

[demonboy]

Hi - we have taken a 40foot boat with an IRC weight of 5.9 tons for a year covering 5.5k miles. Bear in mind - condensation ( we even had ice on deck in the Algarve ) and slamming - its shock loads that will break your boat. ( 4 days of that from La Palma to the Azores )
OK a lightweight racer will be minimalist so tanks will be small - ours are 80 litre each - is there room to add auxiliaries ? The mast may well be thin and very tweekable we have running backstays which are pesky however with a 3/4 fraction we had a main made that reduces sail to the fraction and that takes 3m out of the sail and gives you an effective masthead rig as both runners can be on and left.
The interior is likely to have opportunity for the DIY enthusiast !!!!! so you can probably do what you like to it. Ours was spartan inside without doors headlinings etc
Space for a larger battery bank needs to be looked for and will it be possible to fit 'other' charging means.

On the + side and assuming that in ocean X ing you can download GRIBs etc if you see a weather system coming that you dont like you can use the boats speed to get clear and you will be able to sail in light airs. We were making good progress to the Canaries with only 6kts wind on the beam.
We met people who had done a circumnavigation in a Swan 45 which is no lightweight but no slouch either - if I had the dosh thats where I would go but have enjoyed the work and creative mods to ours. Hope this helps, boat is no the Hamble if you are near / wish to see / chat.

Mark

Hi Mark, thanks for the reply. We're in Malaysia at the moment.

I attempted to change the title of my thread as I realised it may have been misleading. I'm looking at a racer-cruiser, not just a racer - somewhere between your boat and ours. I've sailed long enough to know that you can't always outrun the weather, it will catch up with you one day. I've been through nasty weather but I don't have enough experience of light-weight boats to know how well they would cope. Most of the yacht deliveries I did in and around Euope were heavier boats. The only 'lighter' boat I sailed was a Beneteau Oceanis 473. That was a trip across the Atlantic with six grown men on board. Something broke every day on that trip.

 

[geem]

Thanks for the replies. To explain a bit more, this issue is more to do with circumstances, though performance may be a consideration if we buy another boat. Our boat can be slow in light winds and I do get frustrated when lighter, faster boats are sailing and we're motoring. Dunno about you lot but I've been surprised by the amount of motoring we've done over the last seven years, I'd really hoped to have done more sailing, but I know this is common with a lot of liveaboards on heavier blue-water cruisers like ours. I sometimes wonder if we should have bought a Nauticat! And tri39, whilst I'm not looking at multihulls, carrying extra diesel has always been a pain in the rectum for us. The amount of jerry cans we've accumulated really annoys me. On our last trip the last 500 miles was in very light airs. We needed the extra diesel to see us through but a lighter boat could have sailed us there.

Ian, it would break my heart to sell Esper, and I need to find out how realistic it would be to sell her in Malaysia, but we may have to. I'm just pre-empting that possibility.

Michael, when you overload a light boat, what are the issues? Is it just performance or are there structural issues too? We carry so much $h!t on Esper I think we'd find it hard to become more spartan. More to the point, when I think about the situations we've been in, the amount of fishing nets we've sailed over, the tight coral anchorages we've navigated our way through, the monsoon squalls we've had to endure, I worry that a lighter boat would have broken by now.

We have swapped to a heavy monohull but she is not slow. We carry 20% more sail area than similar boats. She happily does 5-5.5 knots in 7 or 8 knots of true wind speed if the wind is forward of the beam. having come from catamaran sailing i didnt want to go to a slow heavy boat, i just wanted the ability to carry gear but still sail in light winds. You can have both without moving to a light weight boat.
When we were in the Caribbean we met several lightweight Beneteau First type machines. They were all 4-6 inches down on their marks. They had gone from lightweight to heavy weight but had none of the heavy weight sailing attributes. We could out point them to windward in a cat!
I know this might sound crazy but have you thought about fitting a taller mast? My catamaran had a mast 8 ft taller than standard. In light wind she was fast. It could be a lot easier than changing your boat. Also, have you got a folding prop? big advantage in light winds.

 

[demonboy]

I know this might sound crazy but have you thought about fitting a taller mast? My catamaran had a mast 8 ft taller than standard. In light wind she was fast. It could be a lot easier than changing your boat. Also, have you got a folding prop? big advantage in light winds.

Thanks for the reply, geem. As I said in my previous post, however, this is about circumstance, not about improving the performance of our current boat. We have a feathering prop, FWIW.

 

[ribrage]

I cant imagine you getting any where near a european price tag for Esper in Malaysia - this is just a mid life crisis

you wont sell Esper......... it would be akin to selling your moggy and swopping your mrs for a lady boy, you know you'll regret it

If you do loose your marbles, I got a bag full of Indonesian shrapnel , some vietnamese wotsits, some singapore widgets and a few Aussie dollars left on here somewhere, I could make an offer that would make you cry.

where you heading next ?

 

[Neil_Y]

The Rodger Martin designed Cetacea is a lovely live aboard, I spent a few days and nights on her in Grenada back in the mid 90's. She was built as a world cruiser after the owner had circumnavigated in an old heavy boat. She's light(ish) weight with quite shallow keel based on Open 60's of the time with quite a beamy aft end but plenty of sail area, the owner had also experienced a lot of light wind pacific sailing.
Lovely boat and if I ever get a boat built to cruise it will be close to this design.
13.7m and 10900Kg

http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio/cetacea-2/

 

[Neil_Y]

Right thing, I lived on and sailed my last boat a 12.15m at 8000Kg, in the light stuff she sailed well and in the breezy stuff we reefed. A quick safe passage making boat plenty of sail area is never a handicap, over powered you can reef under powered you start the engine or wait.

 

[demonboy]

where you heading next ?

Well that's partly the reason for the post, Ian. This isn't a whim. Circumstances are suggesting we may have to head back closer to home, and the boat is not ready for that trip. Neither am I, and neither is my bank balance.

 

[demonboy]

The Rodger Martin designed Cetacea is a lovely live aboard,

I'm loving that interior, Neil. One thing we will do if we stay in this area is redo our interior. Our veneer is peeling so we're looking at alternatives. The usual teak/oak interiors are quite boring, IMHO, so I'm all for something a little different like this Cetacea. It reminds me of something Roger Dean might design!

 

[sailorman]

2003-2005 I did an Atlantic Circuit in my Contessa 33. Please note, not a 32! The 33 is a much whizzier Rob Humphrys cruiser racer. Never was there a worry about her construction, She was fast. Great fun sailing upwind past plodding cruisers, forced to motorsail. You could always find her in the anchorage, as the only boat with a 7/8 rig complete with jumpers.

Main drawback, was that she was always a bit overloaded. In full ocean crossing mode she was carrying about 800kg more than when setup for local sailing. Empty weight was 4250 kg. Also, things were a bit spartan. No hot water, no watermaker, no heating.

Were you single handed

 

[blackdogsailing]

OK, I won't go into the reasons why I am looking into this right now but I have been looking at buying a light-weight racer/cruiser as a possible liveaboard (e.g. 10 ton 14m). Currently I have a well-found Oyster 435, who has proved her mettle on a number of occasions, so I'm trying to get my head around the idea of living on a lighter boat in similar (liveaboard) conditions. It would be a round-the-world liveaboard.

My main concerns are things like bolt-on keel (as opposed to encapsulated), bigger draft, no skeg, less rigging, deck-stepped mast, thinner fibreglass... and of course the wear and tear on a lighter boat versus the solid build of our current boat.

I'm not looking for a debate as to whether this is the right or wrong thing to do, I'm interested to hear from any liveaboard who lives on such a boat and how they find it. I'm especially interested to hear from anyone who used to have a bluewater cruiser like ours and then swapped it for a light racer/cruiser.

Hi Demon Boy,
I'm in quite a good position to help you here. Firstly, our boat is a Beneteau First 435 from 1985. A classic 'cruiser-racer' designed by German Frers and looking very much like a swan. In 2015 we are setting off on a r.t.w. trip and I have no qualms about doing it in her.
To answer your points. Bigger draft ? Yes, but I do not see that as a disadvantage. Unless perhaps you want to sail in the Bahamas !
No skeg ? Yes, its weakest point.
Less rigging ? Mine is a masthead rig with running checkstays which I leave on all the time. The mast is solid and keel stepped. Yes it bends more than the oyster but is that really an issue ? Admittedly you have to take more care of it ( I have a hydraulic backstay which has to be set up correctly)
Thinner fibreglass ? Most definitely not !! In its day, yes, it was regarded as light but nowadays I bet mine is thicker than any modern production boat.
Wear and tear ? My fittings are huge compared to a modern boat. No worries there.
However, the downside...
Cockpit- Not as comfortable as a genuine blue water cruiser and nothing like as much protection. However she does have a bridge deck which I think is a good safety issue.
Below- 3 proper sea berths in the saloon but it is a bit old fashioned and again, not as comfortable as a modern design.
Lack of storage- Because of the berths we struggle to find enough space for all the junk !!
Sailing- Just brilliant. Her strongest selling point. Good in light airs ( but a modern arcona will leave me standing in 5 kts. of breeze). She can carry full sail up to 22 kts. apparent before it starts getting a bit 'Oh s**t, time to reef !
Weight issues- My boat was designed to be raced with a crew of 10. That's an awful lot of spare weight you can use ! We went sailing in the summer for 2 weeks. Full water tanks, full diesel tanks plus spare. dinghy, 2 outboards, 2 bicycles etc. etc. No problems with anything.
In short, an old beneteau first is right up your street !!

The other reason I can help is that swmbo has sailed a lot on an oyster 435 and much prefers everything about our present boat. Having said that her father was aboard the oyster when it got caught in a storm off the Azores. Got rolled 3 times ! Would mine have survived ? Probably not ! But then I wouldn't have taken it across the atlantic in February !!
The story of thier ordeal is quite something and really shows how good the oyster 435 is.
Hope that helps some.
Chris

 

[Chema]

Hi demonboy. I could recommend you Canary Island and specially La Palma (Canary Island) where you have Marina of Tazacorte. You can enjoy the sea and the intense nature of the sites in the area in a friendly atmosphere with plenty of sport facilities, with the tranquillity to enjoy all our services and facilities. A privileged climate in the port every day of the year will delight any sailor. Use this time to take a bike ride around a unique area of the Isla Bonita and at nightfall be surprised by the warm starry night in an environment conditioned for the perfect view of the sky in “The Island of the night stars.”
I hope you help.
Regards