Any chemically compatible alternatives, to VP green antifreeze, please?

[Baddox]

Ethylene or propylene glycol are the major components in antifreeze usually mixed to give very roughly a 50:50 ratio with water. The Organic Acid Technology, Silicate or other materials are added as corrosion inhibitors.
The glycols will happily mix but different types of corrosion inhibitors can react with each other.

Some inhibitors are benign but others are particularly nasty chemicals. I ran a project only a few years ago and chose not to have the more severe of them in one of my industrial laboratories even for use by experienced research chemists, so I can understand if their use in antifreeze is restricted.

 

[black mercury]

My volvo 2003 has been running on blue ethylene glycol for years. I change it every two or three years.

 

[Plum]

I just had this response from Volvo Penta agent Volspec in Essex:
"Sales restriction to private consumers of legacy green coolants.

Effective from the 1st of December 2023 updated legislation, Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 (REACH) Appendix VI and Annex XVII, and Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008 (CLP) Appendix VI will enter into force.
This will result in sales restrictions within the EU, United Kingdom & Türkiye of Volvo Penta T90 & G48 Concentrated & pre-mix green coolants.

The updated directive can be summarized accordingly:
Green coolants T90 & G48 contain disodium tetraborate and 2-ethyl hexanoic acid that exceed the revised safe limits so are now classified as a Toxic. Substances under Reproduction Toxic Category 1B (H360FD).
Green coolants T90 & G48 are NOT allowed to be sold to the public.
Companies and Sole Traders wishing to purchase these products will need to provide proof they are a professional engineering, manufacturing or construction related business end user.
The following methods will be deemed acceptable as proof.
Prior company trading history.
A company’s house classification.
Business card, Company website or CSCS card.

Please ensure the Material Safety Datasheet for these products are read prior to use these can be found at WEBSDS"

So they will still sell it to you if you can produce a business card, or just go to one of the many other businesses selling it.

 

[Beneteau381]

You seem to be saying/implying I'm wrong, and OAT and "glycol" are different things.

They might have mixed the OAT with "silicate" coolant, AKA IAT (Inorganic Acid Technology) coolant, with which I believe it can form a gel. I THINK they both ethylene glycol base

Classic Antifreeze 20l - Rye Oil Limited

"Inorganic acid technology (IAT) antifreeze, also known as fully formulated coolant, is a traditional type of coolant that contains ethylene glycol, phosphates, and silicates. It’s usually green or blue in colour and is often used in older vehicles, particularly those manufactured before the late 1990s. This antifreeze is designed to protect cast iron, brass, copper, and aluminium parts in older vehicles, and it also contains supplemental coolant additives (SCA) to prevent engine lining corrosion."

Sigh!
From pistonheads.com, it explains it far better than I can?
The right colour is important as the additives and corrosion-inhibitors, indeed the whole technology, are different and should not be mixed or substituted. The blue (or green) should be ethylene glycol based (IAT - Inorganic Additive Technology) and appropriate for classics, typically with cast iron or ferrous engines.
The pink / orange / red coolants are normally OAT (Organic Acid Technology) coolants with extended life properties designed for more modern engines that are primarily alloy in construction. The chemicals in these are very often NOT suitable for preventing corrosion in ferrous engines and indeed can attack and erode certain metals often found in classic car cooling systems, like the solder used in the manufacture and sealing of radiators.

You can now get some more modern antifreezes that are advertised as safe for older cast iron engines, but don't assume it is unless it says so or check with the manufacturer.

An ethyl glycol based antifreeze should be the correct antifreeze for your car (so a standard 2yr blue type) and it should be run at the correct mix all year round. Don't be tempted to make the mix too strong on the basis that 'more is better' - it isn't as the antifreeze isn't as good at conducting heat unless mixed with water. It needs to mixed to the correct proportions and not with tap water - used distilled water. Also, a word on safety - ethyl glycol based antifreeze is nasty stuff, highly toxic (hence in part the development of OAT antifreezes that are far less damaging to the environment). You should wear gloves while handling antifreeze as it can be absorbed through the skin, potentially causing internal organ damage..... Come 2yr change time any old antifreeze / coolant should be disposed

 

[thinwater]

No idea what happens on your side of the pond but when I served my apprenticeship in the motor trade (in the UK 60+ years ago) antifreeze was selected by colour and that had continued for many makes. Last time I bought antifreeze was this winter in Portugal, in Norauto, their equivalent to Halfords here. Not recognising any of the multiple types & makes on display, I asked for some ethylene glycol for cast iron engine and was handed a can of green so, some places still stick to the old colour rules.

OTOH, Googling around UK suppliers on line now, it seems, as you say, colour could be anything, depending on maker.

I have sometimes wondered, in areas where freezing temperatures never happen, whether a corrosion inhibitor such as central heating Fernox may be a better and longer lasting additive.

The standards association (ASTM) I was a member of is international, and we worked with EVERY major maker, including all European and Japanese makes. This is not a "side of the pond" issue. There is one international standards org (they merged a few decades ago) for engine coolants.

I promise you that the colors meant different things to different makers. One brand's yellow or green bore no chemical relation to another.

Traditional silicate/nitrite AF for HD diesels is sold in yellow and red by several European makes. Also green.

No, you do NOT want to use heat transfer fluid AF in a vehical. Some may be OK, but most are high pH for bug control (bugs are controlled in engines by high operating temperatures--HVAC may not get hot for many months, and never hot enough to sterilize the system) and are trouble if there are ANY alloy parts anywhere in the system. (I also formulated HVAC AF in that former life--it is NOT for engine use).

---

Read the spec sheets and SDS. Ask if need be. But don't go by "all makes" claims or color. Neither has any defined meaning. Or roll the dice; the OAT formulations have broad compatibility.

 

[ducked]

Sigh!

Sigh yourself, and other gaseous exhalation noises

I just had this response from Volvo Penta agent Volspec in Essex:
"Sales restriction to private consumers of legacy green coolants.

Effective from the 1st of December 2023 updated legislation, Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 (REACH) Appendix VI and Annex XVII, and Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008 (CLP) Appendix VI will enter into force.
This will result in sales restrictions within the EU, United Kingdom & Türkiye of Volvo Penta T90 & G48 Concentrated & pre-mix green coolants.

The updated directive can be summarized accordingly:
Green coolants T90 & G48 contain disodium tetraborate and 2-ethyl hexanoic acid that exceed the revised safe limits so are now classified as a Toxic. Substances under Reproduction Toxic Category 1B (H360FD).
Green coolants T90 & G48 are NOT allowed to be sold to the public.
Companies and Sole Traders wishing to purchase these products will need to provide proof they are a professional engineering, manufacturing or construction related business end user.
The following methods will be deemed acceptable as proof.
Prior company trading history.
A company’s house classification.
Business card, Company website or CSCS card.

Please ensure the Material Safety Datasheet for these products are read prior to use these can be found at WEBSDS"

So they will still sell it to you if you can produce a business card, or just go to one of the many other businesses selling it.

Bit puzzled as to how come a bizniz card is accepted as a magic shield against toxins.

We all have plenty of DuPont product in our bloodstreams to demonstrate the limitations of professionalim in an environmental pollution context.

 

[NealB]

Somewhere along the line, I was given the part number for the concentrated antifreeze that is specified for the VP 2000 series engines.

A few phone calls found a Volvo truck dealer who was happy to sell me 10 litres of said part number, that they diluted 50:50 with distilled water.

So I've now, quite possibly, got a lifetime's supply.

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions: very helpful

 

[Plum]

Somewhere along the line, I was given the part number for the concentrated antifreeze that is specified for the VP 2000 series engines.

A few phone calls found a Volvo truck dealer who was happy to sell me 10 litres of said part number, that they diluted 50:50 with distilled water.

So I've now, quite possibly, got a lifetime's supply.

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions: very helpful

That is good news.

 

[ducked]

Sigh!
From pistonheads.com, it explains it far better than I can?
The right colour is important as the additives and corrosion-inhibitors, indeed the whole technology, are different and should not be mixed or substituted. The blue (or green) should be ethylene glycol based (IAT - Inorganic Additive Technology) and appropriate for classics, typically with cast iron or ferrous engines.
The pink / orange / red coolants are normally OAT (Organic Acid Technology) coolants with extended life properties designed for more modern engines that are primarily alloy in construction. The chemicals in these are very often NOT suitable for preventing corrosion in ferrous engines and indeed can attack and erode certain metals often found in classic car cooling systems, like the solder used in the manufacture and sealing of radiators.

You can now get some more modern antifreezes that are advertised as safe for older cast iron engines, but don't assume it is unless it says so or check with the manufacturer.

An ethyl glycol based antifreeze should be the correct antifreeze for your car (so a standard 2yr blue type) and it should be run at the correct mix all year round. Don't be tempted to make the mix too strong on the basis that 'more is better' - it isn't as the antifreeze isn't as good at conducting heat unless mixed with water. It needs to mixed to the correct proportions and not with tap water - used distilled water. Also, a word on safety - ethyl glycol based antifreeze is nasty stuff, highly toxic (hence in part the development of OAT antifreezes that are far less damaging to the environment). You should wear gloves while handling antifreeze as it can be absorbed through the skin, potentially causing internal organ damage..... Come 2yr change time any old antifreeze / coolant should be disposed

Nope. I think they explain it worse than you did.

While they also imply that ethylene glycol based antifreeze and OAT antifreeze are two distinct types, which I'm pretty sure is wrong, they are more long winded and obscure about it, so less obviously wrong.

If you are going to be wrong, its better for everyone if you are obviously wrong.

Heres an example of a safety sheet for an OAT antifreeze, confirming its got ethylene glycol in it, at 45-55%. Since this is premix, the rest will be mostly water.

https://assets.cnhindustrial.com/nh...AT-Extended-Life-CoolantAntifreeze-Premix.pdf

The pistonheaded people also say the colour is important, which has already been dismissed by chemically headed people above.

 

[Beneteau381]

Nope. I think they explain it worse than you did.

While they also imply that ethylene glycol based antifreeze and OAT antifreeze are two distinct types, which I'm pretty sure is wrong, they are more long winded and obscure about it, so less obviously wrong.

If you are going to be wrong, its better for everyone to be obviously wrong.

Heres an example of safety sheet for an OAT antifreeze, confirming its mostly ethylene glycol and water

https://assets.cnhindustrial.com/nhag/apac/assets/pdf/msds/SDS-OAT-Extended-Life-CoolantAntifreeze-Premix.pdf

Oh dear me.

 

[Ammonite]

Nope. I think they explain it worse than you did.

While they also imply that ethylene glycol based antifreeze and OAT antifreeze are two distinct types, which I'm pretty sure is wrong, they are more long winded and obscure about it, so less obviously wrong.

If you are going to be wrong, its better for everyone if you are obviously wrong.

Heres an example of a safety sheet for an OAT antifreeze, confirming its got ethylene glycol in it, at 45-55%. Since this is premix, the rest will be mostly water.

https://assets.cnhindustrial.com/nh...AT-Extended-Life-CoolantAntifreeze-Premix.pdf

The pistonheaded people also say the colour is important, which has already been dismissed by chemically headed people above.

That's correct. The base is generally the same and it's the additive package that determines whether it's IAT, OAT, HOAT etc. Colour used to mean something but is not a reliable guide nowadays.