Antifoul advice for a newbie

[JollyRodgers]

Hello,

I will soon have to scrap back quite a few years worth of anti foul on a Sadler 32 and repaint it and was wondering what advice you could give to a newbie?

I've read lots on here and other forums about other boat owners in the area getting p*ssed off with people sanding and making huge dust clouds near there boat, but I'm not really sure how I would prevent this?

Some people are saying do not use electrical sanders or scrapers and others are saying do use them. So far I was planning on using a handheld scraper to get off the first few layers and when I got nearer the gelcoat, then switch over to hand held on a box sand paper (what grit grade would be best?).

Would this mask be adequate - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003ZIUA...TF8&colid=1FJ7MKJWNWJRH&coliid=I2ZTF7WH6689S1

I'll get an ex-army surplus boiler suit so that my skin is all protected too and wear gloves. If anyone could post some links up of things I should get that will make the job safer or easier/quicker then I would much appreciate that.

The surveyor has advised me that I may want to consider coppercoating the gelcoat, whilst it is bare. Any thoughts on this?

And what anti foul is considered the best for the Chichester/Solent area?

Many thanks,

JR

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Hello,

I will soon have to scrap back quite a few years worth of anti foul on a Sadler 32 and repaint it and was wondering what advice you could give to a newbie?

I've read lots on here and other forums about other boat owners in the area getting p*ssed off with people sanding and making huge dust clouds near there boat, but I'm not really sure how I would prevent this?

Some people are saying do not use electrical sanders or scrapers and others are saying do use them. So far I was planning on using a handheld scraper to get off the first few layers and when I got nearer the gelcoat, then switch over to hand held on a box sand paper (what grit grade would be best?).

Would this mask be adequate - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003ZIUA...TF8&colid=1FJ7MKJWNWJRH&coliid=I2ZTF7WH6689S1

I'll get an ex-army surplus boiler suit so that my skin is all protected too and wear gloves. If anyone could post some links up of things I should get that will make the job safer or easier/quicker then I would much appreciate that.

The surveyor has advised me that I may want to consider coppercoating the gelcoat, whilst it is bare. Any thoughts on this?

And what anti foul is considered the best for the Chichester/Solent area?

Many thanks,

JR

If you are doing it by hand, be prepared for a long and arduous task! There is another member of this forums who spent over a year removing antifouling from his hull, even with assistance! The ideal tool is a draw scraper like this one (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bahco-650-Carbide-Edged-Scraper/dp/B0001IX7RY); that will bring the antifouling off in largish flakes, so there isn't a dust problem. The problem with DRY sanding is many-fold. First, it creates clouds of toxic dust. You may well be wearing wonderful protective gear, but your neighbour downwind probably won't be. Second, it can cause staining on surfaces downwind which won't endear you to your neighbours and finally, sanding can easily cause damage to the gel-coat. If you want to sand, you should use wet and dry paper wet, so that the dust is trapped. One of these (http://www.screwfix.com/p/pole-sander-260-x-85mm/33586) is very handy.

If you're going for Coppercoat - and I would agree with your surveyor - then the ideal method of preparation is to get it professionally blasted using a suitable grit. Mine was done with olivine grit but there are many possibilities.

 

[prv]

The best thing I found for sanding antifoul was "drywall sanding mesh". You can buy it at B&Q although no doubt eBay has it cheaper. You then mount this on the end of a pole with a pivoting head, sold for the purpose - like this:

Although it's not powered, the fact that you hold it with both hands and make big movements means it's far less tiring than most hand-sanding (and I do a fair bit of that). You end up using your far bigger leg, back and shoulder muscles rather than your forearms. You also generally don't need to grovel about in awkward positions under the boat, you can just reach with the pole.

You need to keep both the tool and the boat nice and wet - a hose to rinse off the boat is ideal although I have managed with buckets before. You also need a large bucket (I used an old tile grout tub) to keep dunking the sanding head into to wash out the sludge that clogs it up - the water in the bucket will need changing from time to time.

Because all the antifoul that comes off is in the form of wet sludge and dirty water, you don't need dust masks and sealed suits - I just used to wear my ordinary boat-working clothes although in retrospect some wellies might have been useful

I used to do a 24-foot boat (long keel, so a bit more wetted surface than many) using one sheet per side; they still had some life left in them. I didn't find it excessively hard work or tiring.

I would not recommend using a hand scraper or hand sanding at all at all

Note that I was only smoothing the old surface and removing excessive build-up, not specifically going back to the gelcoat (sure you need to do that?). Although I did rub through to the gel in places so it was certainly taking plenty off, and may well be suitable for that task. Just that I haven't tried to take it all off this way.

Coppercoat is roughly as effective as antifoul, certainly not hugely better. The benefit is in not having to sand and paint each year, though you do still need to pressure-wash off the growth that builds up. We have it on the new boat (hence all my talk in the past tense above ) at my dad's instigation because I think he liked the idea of a zero-maintenance one-off solution - which it isn't really, just lower maintenance. If it were down to me I think I'd have stuck with traditional antifoul - and bear in mind it was always me that did all the sanding and most of the painting!

Pete

 

[seanfoster]

From what I've read on other posts on this forum, Soda blasting seems to be effective and a popular choice, I've no idea how much costs though.

 

[JollyRodgers]

Thanks for the reply. There would be two of us and were both young, so presumed that it would be relatively quick to do in comparison.

If I contacted a boat yard to do the coppercoat for me, would they slurry blast it all off and then apply it for me? And then I do the antifoul once the coppercoat has set?

I was interested in doing scraping it all back and applying new antifoul, as I would be learning something new - but it's starting to sound as though it would be more economical for me to pay someone to do it all for me if it's going to take so long.

Having never done this before, I figured that the two of us would be able to scrap off all the old paint down to the gelcoat within 2 long days. Starting to sound unrealistic.

 

[Kwik Decision]

1) Do you really need to remove the old? If the old is reasonably well stuck on, and flat(ish), give it a rub down / scrub with a Scotchbright pad used wet, and apply a coat of new on the top. I did this for quite a few years after buying our boat. Once it got to the stage that big flakes of the old anitfouling were coming off as I rollered the new stuff on, I went for:
2) If you can afford to pay a pro to blast the bottom, I'd recommend going down that route. Removing old antifouling is horrible - I did a small area before deciding to spend some savings.
3) If you do want to DIY, then scraping followed by wet sanding will keep the dust to a minimum....
4) We coppercoated 4 yrs ago (after having the bottom blasted). It worked as well as conventional antifouling on a deep water mooring in Portsmouth, but now we're on a semitidal mud berth on the Hamble, all the bits which sink into the mud get covered in barnacles and hard worm things......

 

[prv]

From what I've read on other posts on this forum, Soda blasting seems to be effective and a popular choice, I've no idea how much costs though.

Certainly if you're taking every bit of paint off in order to epoxy or copper-coat, I think pro blasting (with whatever they recommend) should be considered essential. Sanding mesh and pole if just clearing old antifoul before slapping more on.

Pete

 

[prv]

And then I do the antifoul once the coppercoat has set?

Heh. Coppercoat replaces antifoul, you don't paint anything over the top

Pete

 

[Georgio]

Another vote for the Bahco scraper, it is the best I have found so far if manually scraping, worth rounding the edges with a file to avoid accidental deep scratches in the gel coat. Lay down some old sheets, tarp or similar to collect the scraping and dispose in a bin.

I have just done s 24' boat in this way. It's pretty hard work but you will get there. You can always do half this winter and half next if time and energy are not in your side.

Coppercoat is an option but you need decent weather to apply, AF is the easier option in the short term.

Depends how fussy you are about a clean bum/regular cleaning but I suggest you go for one of the stronger AF's in that area, I normally use Micron Extra in Portsmouth and it works reasonably well.



Even if scraping a mask of some sort is a good idea although there is mush less dust than there would be with sanding.

I would personally never dry-sand AF but I do wet sand with 80-120 grit to flat down the hull and avoid build up before recoating.

 

[Kwik Decision]

If I contacted a boat yard to do the coppercoat for me, would they slurry blast it all off and then apply it for me? And then I do the antifoul once the coppercoat has set?

Having never done this before, I figured that the two of us would be able to scrap off all the old paint down to the gelcoat within 2 long days. Starting to sound unrealistic.

I paid £2.5 - 3k for a pro to blast our boat, epoxy coat the hull and keels (he got a realy good finish - the boat had previously been gel shielded badly, and had a somewhat undulating bottom!), and then apply copper coat. The copper coat is instead of antifoul - the benefit should be you just need to scrub the bottom 1 or 2 times a year, rather than antifouling, and it is supposed to last 10 yrs +.

Having said that, I would hope that two fit blokes could get a Sadler 32 hull scraped and sanded in a weekend

 

[prv]

Having never done this before, I figured that the two of us would be able to scrap off all the old paint down to the gelcoat within 2 long days. Starting to sound unrealistic.

I think it's important to distinguish between the three possible choices you have -

1) Blast off all the paint back to pristine gelcoat, then coppercoat. Ideally all done by professionals, but if you need to save cash then just get the blasting done and then do the coppercoating yourself following the instructions absolutely to the letter. Temperature is likely to be a problem if you're doing it soon - ours was done in a climate-controlled indoor spray-bay!
2) Blast or sand off practically all the antifoul, but not to the sort of pristine surface needed for coppercoat, then start again with antifoul. You could get a pro to blast it which will be easy, or you could probably do it with hard work and wet pole sanders. 2 long days for two people sounds believable to me though I wouldn't like to bet on it with a deadline looming; as I said, I've not sanded right back to bare myself before.
3) Sand back the antifoul to remove some of the buildup, any flakey bits, and any rough edges, leaving a smooth surface of old antifoul. Ought to be doable by two people in one day. Then apply a couple of fresh coats and go sailing!

Reading between the lines (Sadler 32, young couple (or two mates), new to boat ownership), my recommendation would be for option 3. Get out there and go sailing (and find all the other bits that need time and money spending on them more urgently!) rather than obsessing over the state of your bottom. You can always come back and do one of the other options at a later date.

Pete

 

[laika]

FWIW here's my opinion. When I bought my boat I had no boat maintenance experience. It had 20 years of antifoul of unknown origin (some of the older layers turkish). I was quoted (I think) £600 to blast it (5 years ago, 41' boat). I thought nah, it's just donkey work: it's one thing I can do myself. I regret not paying the money. I would have saved myself days of horrible work, a night of illness (despite the mask+goggles) and ended up with a nice surface that would have reduced the work in subsequent years. I'm actually thinking about getting it blasted this year (so I'm interested in opinions on CO2 vs. other methods). Coppercoat sounds attractive but the net opinion reported on this forum seems to be at best only mildly positive so I'll probably stick with what I know and anti-foul after blasting and re-epoxying.

Antifoul-wise, 2.5 coats of micron extra lasted me more than 2 years in a Gosport marina. Dunno how the micron extra 2 it's got on now is holding up. Others will probably say it's unnecessarily expensive.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

Hello,

I will soon have to scrap back quite a few years worth of anti foul on a Sadler 32 and repaint it and was wondering what advice you could give to a newbie?

I've read lots on here and other forums about other boat owners in the area getting p*ssed off with people sanding and making huge dust clouds near there boat, but I'm not really sure how I would prevent this?

Some people are saying do not use electrical sanders or scrapers and others are saying do use them. So far I was planning on using a handheld scraper to get off the first few layers and when I got nearer the gelcoat, then switch over to hand held on a box sand paper (what grit grade would be best?).

Would this mask be adequate - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003ZIUA...TF8&colid=1FJ7MKJWNWJRH&coliid=I2ZTF7WH6689S1

I'll get an ex-army surplus boiler suit so that my skin is all protected too and wear gloves. If anyone could post some links up of things I should get that will make the job safer or easier/quicker then I would much appreciate that.

The surveyor has advised me that I may want to consider coppercoating the gelcoat, whilst it is bare. Any thoughts on this?

And what anti foul is considered the best for the Chichester/Solent area?

Many thanks,

JR

Initial use of scraper is good. Electric sander not so good unless the dust can be prevented from drifting onto other boats, cars, bodies of water, the environment in general. This is why wet sanding has generally been preferred.
If you do go down the route of suiting up and machine sanding, consider what you will do with the boiler suit when you are finished. Perhaps some disposable overalls with a hood might be preferable.
Notwithstanding your overalls and mask, any exposed skin, (forehead, wrists, forearms for instance) will be covered in dust. Barrier cream might help.
If it were me, I would just give it a light scraping to remove any loose material and wet sand with 120 grit. Stripping it back to bare gelcoat is really only necessary for coppercoating and will only benefit your boat's performance by a fraction of a knot.

 

[JollyRodgers]

Heh. Coppercoat replaces antifoul, you don't paint anything over the top

Pete

Haha, well that's just saved me a few bob. Thanks for clarifying.

The best thing I found for sanding antifoul was "drywall sanding mesh". You can buy it at B&Q although no doubt eBay has it cheaper. You then mount this on the end of a pole with a pivoting head, sold for the purpose - like this:

You need to keep both the tool and the boat nice and wet - a hose to rinse off the boat is ideal although I have managed with buckets before. You also need a large bucket (I used an old tile grout tub) to keep dunking the sanding head into to wash out the sludge that clogs it up - the water in the bucket will need changing from time to time.

I would not recommend using a hand scraper or hand sanding at all at all

Pete

This looks like a pretty good option, although I think for the sake of £18 I would still purchase one of those bahco hand scrapers (I think they will work better for the smaller areas around the rudder and the fin).

So would need to purchase the pole (something like this http://www.ciponline.co.uk/hand-too...in-sta005928&utm_campaign=product+listing+ads or http://www.screwfix.com/p/pole-sander-260-x-85mm/33586 . I figured the stanley maybe better as it has more padding and it maybe stronger, as it doesnt extend. thoughts on this?)

and I would need some drywall sanding mesh, like this - http://www.diy.com/departments/norton-expert-120-grit-sandpaper-roll-l5m-w115mm/189431_BQ.prd
I figured I may as well get a roll of it, because I want to sand down other stuff inside and it works out much cheaper to buy more + it's not like it goes out of date really.

No access to hose, due to the location. However, would have to get some big buckets and fill them up at the tap.

I paid £2.5 - 3k for a pro to blast our boat, epoxy coat the hull and keels (he got a realy good finish - the boat had previously been gel shielded badly, and had a somewhat undulating bottom!), and then apply copper coat. The copper coat is instead of antifoul - the benefit should be you just need to scrub the bottom 1 or 2 times a year, rather than antifouling, and it is supposed to last 10 yrs +.

Having said that, I would hope that two fit blokes could get a Sadler 32 hull scraped and sanded in a weekend

Holy mackerel that's expensive! I guess you get what you pay for and tbh I have no idea about the pricing on copper coat or epoxy.

I think it's important to distinguish between the three possible choices you have -

1) Blast off all the paint back to pristine gelcoat, then coppercoat. Ideally all done by professionals, but if you need to save cash then just get the blasting done and then do the coppercoating yourself following the instructions absolutely to the letter. Temperature is likely to be a problem if you're doing it soon - ours was done in a climate-controlled indoor spray-bay!
2) Blast or sand off practically all the antifoul, but not to the sort of pristine surface needed for coppercoat, then start again with antifoul. You could get a pro to blast it which will be easy, or you could probably do it with hard work and wet pole sanders. 2 long days for two people sounds believable to me though I wouldn't like to bet on it with a deadline looming; as I said, I've not sanded right back to bare myself before.
3) Sand back the antifoul to remove some of the buildup, any flakey bits, and any rough edges, leaving a smooth surface of old antifoul. Ought to be doable by two people in one day. Then apply a couple of fresh coats and go sailing!

Reading between the lines (Sadler 32, young couple (or two mates), new to boat ownership), my recommendation would be for option 3. Get out there and go sailing (and find all the other bits that need time and money spending on them more urgently!) rather than obsessing over the state of your bottom. You can always come back and do one of the other options at a later date.

Pete

Yeah, now that I have added everything up and thought about it all in more detail - I agree on option 2/3 being the best bet. I still haven't transferred the funds over for the boat yet (hopefully be doing it in the next few days, once we have agreed on some bits), so I am a bit conscious over my timescale.

I will sand away and see just how thick the antifoul is. If without much effort we are coming to the gelcoat as Pete said he was finding, then I guess we can just continue to that and then apply antifoul afterwards.

The boat needs to be ideally back in the water by the end of March and I need to organise a few other things to be done on it before as well. I'll probably just go down Fri/Sat/Sun and do the sanding and then go back the following weekend for the antifoul if I cant get it all done in one weekend.

I dont want to focus too much on getting the boat into a perfect showroom level finish for the meantime. I just want to have it working, so that I can get it onto the water and start sailing. I can spend more time when it's next out of the water fixing up the little details.

 

[jac]

You also need to be pragmatic about bottom preparation.

If you racing near the top of your class then be obsessive about your hull, lift regularly and reburnish to maximise speed.

If you cruise in a more relaxed fashion then is smoothing the bottom really worth the extra 1/4 knot you might get. If not, Remove any weed, worms, other assorted creepy crawlies, remove any loose or flaking antifoul and then repaint. If it's an eroding a/f some will wear off anyway through the season so unlikely to get too much buildup.

Spend some time ensuring new af will stick, slap another coat or 2 on and then go sailing, losing a weekend to sanding down af feels excessive. Maybe in a few years when you've fixed any other issues you can then splash out on blasting and epoxy coat/ coppercoat.

 

[jac]

One other point.

When antifouling, try and find out what the previous owner used and ensure the new one is compatible. All the manufacturers have compatibility charts. If you don't know, you may need to use a barrier coat of something like primocon before you apply the new AF. Worth factoring into your plans as that will take out a day to apply and then dry.

 

[JollyRodgers]

FWIW here's my opinion. When I bought my boat I had no boat maintenance experience. It had 20 years of antifoul of unknown origin (some of the older layers turkish). I was quoted (I think) £600 to blast it (5 years ago, 41' boat). I thought nah, it's just donkey work: it's one thing I can do myself. I regret not paying the money. I would have saved myself days of horrible work, a night of illness (despite the mask+goggles) and ended up with a nice surface that would have reduced the work in subsequent years. I'm actually thinking about getting it blasted this year (so I'm interested in opinions on CO2 vs. other methods). Coppercoat sounds attractive but the net opinion reported on this forum seems to be at best only mildly positive so I'll probably stick with what I know and anti-foul after blasting and re-epoxying.

Antifoul-wise, 2.5 coats of micron extra lasted me more than 2 years in a Gosport marina. Dunno how the micron extra 2 it's got on now is holding up. Others will probably say it's unnecessarily expensive.

Sounds good (and a bit bad actually). Were you dry sanding, is that what made you ill? Or just the antifoul getting onto your skin?

Will look into the anti foul, that sounds good.

Initial use of scraper is good. Electric sander not so good unless the dust can be prevented from drifting onto other boats, cars, bodies of water, the environment in general. This is why wet sanding has generally been preferred.
If you do go down the route of suiting up and machine sanding, consider what you will do with the boiler suit when you are finished. Perhaps some disposable overalls with a hood might be preferable.
Notwithstanding your overalls and mask, any exposed skin, (forehead, wrists, forearms for instance) will be covered in dust. Barrier cream might help.
If it were me, I would just give it a light scraping to remove any loose material and wet sand with 120 grit. Stripping it back to bare gelcoat is really only necessary for coppercoating and will only benefit your boat's performance by a fraction of a knot.

Thank you. I think it's starting to seem a bit anal to strip it all the way back to the gelcoat for antifoul in this case. A bit like how swimmers shave their entire body haha.

I will see how I get on with all of this and if it turns out to take forever, or I am having a nightmare with it or running out of time, then I will call the experts in.

 

[duncan99210]

We are just about to reapply Coppercoat to our boat as the original stuff is now 14 years old and showing its age: not in terms of effectiveness but it's wearing thin in places and rather than patching, we've decided to do the whole lot. When we lifted last autumn after 2 years afloat, there was some coral worm fouling round the base of the hull but mostly just slime.

When I compare the work I used to do antifouling our motor boat on an annual basis versus a quick jet wash with the Coppercoat on Rampage, there really isn't any contest. I've no doubt that if I were of the go faster racing community I'd be looking for greater resistance to all marine growth but for a long term cruiser, Coppercoat does very nicely thank you.

So what? Well, if the OP is determined to go back to the gel coat, then I think that Coppercoat is worth considering as an option but it is an expensive one: for a 12m yacht it cost us north of £650 just for the Coppercoat. Compare that to probably £150 for normal antifoul, it'll be a minimum of 4 years before it pays for itself. And you'll still need to haul out most years, even if it is only for a scrub and anode replacement.

All that said, I never took the motorboat back to the gel coat, simply made sure that the underlying paint was firmly attached. Unless there's a good reason to take all of the old stuff off (can't think of a good reason unless the OP is looking for the last possible bit of speed for racing) I'd simply slap on a new coat over the old.

 

[JollyRodgers]

I wont be racing, so not particularly too bothered about speed. If I was concerned with speed and racing, I would probably be more likely to ditch 100s of kilos in weight from the main cabin of things that aren't needed - like beds and cookers

I think coppercoat will be a good option to include on my next boat, if I continue to go ahead with my plans, but for this one and just pottering around the solent with a few cross channel cruises and a couple of trips down to the west country - I really dont think it is needed just yet.

I can definitely see the advantages of coppercoating bigger boats (40+) though.

Thank you for everyone that has helped. Still speaking to the owners at the moment, so will make sure I ask them tonight.

 

[Plevier]

So would need to purchase the pole (something like this http://www.ciponline.co.uk/hand-tools-c62/builders-tools-c73/plasterers-dry-lining-tools-c708/drywall-pole-sanders-c1472/aluminum-pole-ultilty-sander-1270mm-50in-p24236/s24250?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=stanley-tools-aluminum-pole-ultilty-sander-1270mm-50in-sta005928&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads or http://www.screwfix.com/p/pole-sander-260-x-85mm/33586 . I figured the stanley maybe better as it has more padding and it maybe stronger, as it doesnt extend. thoughts on this?)

and I would need some drywall sanding mesh, like this - http://www.diy.com/departments/norton-expert-120-grit-sandpaper-roll-l5m-w115mm/189431_BQ.prd

Toolstation cheaper than B&Q/Screwfix

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p41259
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p12186

You also want one of these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200952899387?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT (can't find it in Toolstation!)

and the Bahco type scraper is excellent too get one with a knob on the back like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Harris-T-...510?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f47c215a6
New blades are MUCH cheaper from a woodworking supplies place, they are standard plane blades. Solid carbide. Brittle!