Another what electronics package/brand question.......

James W

James W

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I've pretty much had enough with trying to get my Tacktick instruments to network properly and consistently. They've been back to Raymarine and still no joy for any length of time, despite their insistence all is well.

So, with SIBS looming and the possibility of a deal and a good solid look at what's available, what are the thoughts on the current offering from our friends ;) at the marine electronics companies? I'm looking for a fairly basic networked (N2K) setup including VHF, Plotter (or MFD), AIS, Depth and compatibility with my Simrad TP32 tiller pilot. Wifi would be handy so as to overlay any data onto an iPad or tablet.

I'd just like to have some real World advice/experience if possible please so I can do some research and turn up at the show with a good idea of what I'm looking at, so as not to be baffled by sales people!

Thanks loads,

James
 
You'll get as many recommendations as there are manufacturers - every buyer will defend his choice. I reckon there's not much to choose between the big brands. Raymarine, Garmin, Simrad/B&G/Lowrance all work well. Your TP32 tiller pilot only connects via NMEA0183, and some newer plotters don't support this, so be sure you're aware of the extra costs to convert the data for your tiller pilot.
 
A Garmin GPSMAP will network with a VHF using 0183 or N2K, and the TP32 by 0183, but you'll need N2K depth (Airmar DST 800 in N2K format will give you water temp, depth and STW) and you'll need an N2K AIS as the plotter only has one 0183 port. It will also support various forms of sonar (side scan, forward scan etc) and can display radar.

You can download the Garmin Active Captain app', which will run stand alone on all of you Android or iOS devices, using the same charts as the plotter. Garmin allow you to use your charts on all devices that you own (that support them of course). The plotter has built in wifi, so you can connect it to your iPad and have a mirror of what's on the plotter, with the ability to control the plotter from the iPad. You can do your passage planning on the iPad and save the route to the plotter. GPSMap plotters don't include charts.

Echomap plotters cannot display radar and won't allow you to mirror the plotter to the iPad. But, they do include full UK charts. The Active Captain app' will work, but it's just stand alone, using the plotters charts (a copy is loaded onto the iPad so it will work even if the plotter is off). You can do your passage planning on the iPad but you have to copy it over to the plotter using a SD card.

Ballpark costs, a GPSMAP 922 is about £1150 plus £300 for the charts, a echoMAP Plus 95SV is about £850

So, if you don't want radar, is it really worth an extra £600 to be able to control the plotter with the iPad ?
 
PaulRainbow said:
A Garmin GPSMAP will network with a VHF using 0183 or N2K, and the TP32 by 0183, but you'll need N2K depth (Airmar DST 800 in N2K format will give you water temp, depth and STW) and you'll need an N2K AIS as the plotter only has one 0183 port. It will also support various forms of sonar (side scan, forward scan etc) and can display radar.

You can download the Garmin Active Captain app', which will run stand alone on all of you Android or iOS devices, using the same charts as the plotter. Garmin allow you to use your charts on all devices that you own (that support them of course). The plotter has built in wifi, so you can connect it to your iPad and have a mirror of what's on the plotter, with the ability to control the plotter from the iPad. You can do your passage planning on the iPad and save the route to the plotter. GPSMap plotters don't include charts.

Echomap plotters cannot display radar and won't allow you to mirror the plotter to the iPad. But, they do include full UK charts. The Active Captain app' will work, but it's just stand alone, using the plotters charts (a copy is loaded onto the iPad so it will work even if the plotter is off). You can do your passage planning on the iPad but you have to copy it over to the plotter using a SD card.

Ballpark costs, a GPSMAP 922 is about £1150 plus £300 for the charts, a echoMAP Plus 95SV is about £850

So, if you don't want radar, is it really worth an extra £600 to be able to control the plotter with the iPad ?
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul, that’s the kind of detail I expect from you!

I don’t need radar, especially with AIS, but will the iPad still see all of the other N2K data, despite not being able to control the plotter?

Will the Echomap also work as an MFD, showing all of the N2k data?

I like Garmin as a brand, but how do they fair on customer service and backup?

I’m also slightly worried that the TP32 might not be up to the job as it’s on the cusp regarding weight of the boat. That might push me to an EV100 and Raymarine.....
 
James W said:
Thanks Paul, that’s the kind of detail I expect from you!

I don’t need radar, especially with AIS, but will the iPad still see all of the other N2K data, despite not being able to control the plotter?
Click to expand...

The GPSMap will mirror everything to the iPad, the echoMAP will not, the iPad will be stand alone, just using the app' and the plotter charts.

Will the Echomap also work as an MFD, showing all of the N2k data?
Click to expand...

No, see above.

I like Garmin as a brand, but how do they fair on customer service and backup?
Click to expand...

In my experience, Garmin have been first class. Raymarine have been less so. I have a new customer who recently had a Raymarine package fitted locally and has had some very poor service from the supplier/fitter and Raymarine regarding the autopilot.

My own boat has all Garmin electronics, apart from the Simrad WP32, and i'm very happy with it all, including the outstanding customer service.

I’m also slightly worried that the TP32 might not be up to the job as it’s on the cusp regarding weight of the boat. That might push me to an EV100 and Raymarine.....
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I have WP32 that copes pretty well on my boat. The EV100 is N2K so should work with Garmin kit anyway, although i;ve never fitted one with the GPSmap or echoMAP.
 
I have been very happy with the B&G setup we installed a few years ago. The triton displays are great, and the speed/depth/temp sensor, although branded by Navico, is in fact the same Airmar device as Garmin use. We have an Icom VHF which supplies AIS data and an old Garmin GPSmap plotter that displays the data. These days, especially with N2K, I think you can pretty much choose any combination of gadgets and expect them to play well together. The one thing to consider carefully is how the various components function with your tiller pilot. Having just installed a Simrad NAC2 autopilot, I was pleased to see how one of our triton displays automatically switches to the autopilot screen when the drive is engaged. The only thing I might not buy second time round is the Zeus2 display. It has been useful to upgrade firmware of things like the autopilot computer, and also diagnosing network faults (which the tritons can also do), but beyond that it often doesnt get turned on. Being a techie at heart I have enjoyed learning about N2K and have even made my own wifi gateway that works with iSailor on an iPad. Any decent gateway device will allow you to make use of OpenCPN (I run it on a macbook laptop), which with the new UK charts (and Antares chart overlays), has become my chart table plotter if choice.
 
Could somebody explain to me what SIBS is? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on the forums. I've Googled it, but no luck

Thanks!
 
adwuk said:
I have been very happy with the B&G setup we installed a few years ago. The triton displays are great, and the speed/depth/temp sensor, although branded by Navico, is in fact the same Airmar device as Garmin use. We have an Icom VHF which supplies AIS data and an old Garmin GPSmap plotter that displays the data. These days, especially with N2K, I think you can pretty much choose any combination of gadgets and expect them to play well together. The one thing to consider carefully is how the various components function with your tiller pilot. Having just installed a Simrad NAC2 autopilot, I was pleased to see how one of our triton displays automatically switches to the autopilot screen when the drive is engaged. The only thing I might not buy second time round is the Zeus2 display. It has been useful to upgrade firmware of things like the autopilot computer, and also diagnosing network faults (which the tritons can also do), but beyond that it often doesnt get turned on. Being a techie at heart I have enjoyed learning about N2K and have even made my own wifi gateway that works with iSailor on an iPad. Any decent gateway device will allow you to make use of OpenCPN (I run it on a macbook laptop), which with the new UK charts (and Antares chart overlays), has become my chart table plotter if choice.
Click to expand...

Great stuff, thanks for that. Garmin's looking good for now, but perhaps with a Simrad or Raymarine (if I go for the EV100) display for the autopilot.......
 
James W said:
Great stuff, thanks for that. Garmin's looking good for now, but perhaps with a Simrad or Raymarine (if I go for the EV100) display for the autopilot.......
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I would be careful about mixing makes - we did that a few years ago and it was a real pain. We combined Simrad with Raymarine and they never happily coexisted. Worse still, neither would help us resolve the issues - each blaming the other for introducing incompatibilities. The primary problem was the interface between the plotter and the autopilot. The Simrad plotter often simply refused to recognise the existence of the Raymarine autopilot and, on those occasions that they did see each other, the plotter would periodically try to steer us several miles in-land. This was a 100% NMEA2000 installation using the current range of products from both manufacturers.
 
maby said:
I would be careful about mixing makes - we did that a few years ago and it was a real pain. We combined Simrad with Raymarine and they never happily coexisted. Worse still, neither would help us resolve the issues - each blaming the other for introducing incompatibilities. The primary problem was the interface between the plotter and the autopilot. The Simrad plotter often simply refused to recognise the existence of the Raymarine autopilot and, on those occasions that they did see each other, the plotter would periodically try to steer us several miles in-land. This was a 100% NMEA2000 installation using the current range of products from both manufacturers.
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I'd agree with that. To experience true integration of the autopilot, you really need a single-make system. Some people may have been lucky and found that a mixed-make system has worked for them, but the chances are it won't.
 
I will never again buy anything with the Raymarine logo on it. Not because I think it's bad. On the contrary, I believe some folk have had excellent service from thier products.
My beef is purely and simply due to their atrocious customer support. That might be better described as lack of it.
In recent years, I have telephoned, emailed and actually even written to them. Never once have they returned the promised call, or even replied, without simply trying to sell me a replacement item. I now have zero Raymarine equipment on board, and plan to keep it that way.
As a direct result of the above, they lost sales of approximately £3,750. When I raised this with them, they couldn't have cared less.
 
Dougal said:
I will never again buy anything with the Raymarine logo on it. Not because I think it's bad. On the contrary, I believe some folk have had excellent service from thier products.
My beef is purely and simply due to their atrocious customer support. That might be better described as lack of it.
In recent years, I have telephoned, emailed and actually even written to them. Never once have they returned the promised call, or even replied, without simply trying to sell me a replacement item. I now have zero Raymarine equipment on board, and plan to keep it that way.
As a direct result of the above, they lost sales of approximately £3,750. When I raised this with them, they couldn't have cared less.
Click to expand...

Now you surprise me. Our previous boat was 100% Raymarine and I always had excellent customer service experiences with them. On one occasion I had an obscure problem, I phoned their offices near Portsmouth and was put through to a service engineer who spent half an hour on the phone with me, talking me through a series of tests to narrow down the problem. This was, admittedly, before the FLIR takeover - it may be different now. The new boat is all Garmin and I hate the user interface compared with Raymarine.
 
I've just been through the same process, and opted for a 7" B&G Vulcan FS with an Airmar DST 800 ( speed, depth, temp n2k ).

My older kit was 0183, so I added some Actisense NG1 converters for the AIS and VHF, which worked perfectly 1st time.

I've also added a pair of new old stock Raymarine ST70 Displays in the cockpit, which again worked perfectly out of the box with a N2k to Seatalk NG converter cable, and allow me to see anything on the N2k bus including a rolling road display when a route / waypoint is set on the B&G.

Usefully if you hit the MOB button on the B&G it immediately sets a waypoint which the ST70 will show on it's rolling road display.

The B&G has wifi, and you can control it from a tablet, mirroring the screen to the tablet so the tablet becomes a remote display.

It will do software updates over wifi, and also connects to Predictwind to automatically download grib files. If you have a pro subscription you can do weather routing directly from the B&G.

Add in the B&G sailsteer technology and I would say that their package / software is the most mature and applicable to a sailing vessel. ( of course, I'm slightly biased ;) )
 
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I did a similar upgrade project last year, replacing a mix of ancient instruments with a complete B&G system - Vulcan7 plotter, and the Triton wind/speed/depth/log pack. I removed what seemed to be miles of redundant, ancient wiring, and was able to install the new system so that there's no hidden junctions behind the headlining. I'm very pleased with the result, and as already mentioned the Vulcan is Wifi enabled.
I haven't yet added AIS, but if I wanted to update the VHF I'd choose one with AIS integrated and N2k compatibility.
 
I was able to negotiate a useful discount by buying everything from one vendor at the Southampton boat show last year. Happy shopping!
 
James W said:
The best deals do seem to be B&G at the moment and they’re getting good reviews. Hopefully a win win!
Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with B&G or Simrad. Ballpark costs ;

Vulcan 9 with charts £1100-£1200 (depending on charts)
GPSmap with charts £1450
echoMAP with charts £850

In fairness, it probably compares in some respects to the GPSmap, because it supports radar and you can control the plotter from a tablet. But, it has no NMEA0183 ports. Dolabriform has covered getting around much of that in post #16. I'd agree with fitting the DST800, but note that the NGW-1 is around £130, you'll need one for the auto pilot, unless you change to a N2K one.

If you want to keep costs down, an echoMAP with the existing auto pilot would be a good solution.

There's a lot of talk about plotter/AP integration, but what exactly do you want the AP to do ? Obviously steering a compass heading isn't an issue, it'll do that stand alone. Steering to a waypoint ought to be OK.
 
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