Another UKBA issue

[timbartlett]

I was just about to write a piece for MBY about how disgraceful it is that UKBA go round pointing guns at people, when I thought I'd better check my facts. (Quaint old custom, I know, but I like to do it before launching into print).
Here is the reply I got from UKBA:

I can confirm that UK Border Agency Officers who operate the Cutters are not armed

.
Of course, this could mean what it appears to say. But it comes from a civil servant, so it is at least as likely to mean exactly what it says, i.e. "I can confirm that UK Border Agency Officers who operate the Cutters are not armed" (but I am not commenting on the ones who operate RIBs and jump onto boats)

Does anyone have any first-hand experience of encounters with armed UKBA officers? Please let me know by PM or via my website if so.

 

[Woodlouse]

The customs cutters have a gun on the front don't they?

 

[Leighb]

The customs cutters have a gun on the front don't they?

They have a gun like device on the foredeck, however I am reliably informed that it is a Water Cannon. Still I suppose it could be quite unpleasant should they decide to use it on you.

 

[stephenh]

UKBA

"The customs cutters have a gun on the front don't they?"

- covered in a canvas coat ?

apparently it is a water cannon , not an 'ack- ack' gun; which is what they would like us to think it is......


edit - 'must type faster...'

 

[Ariadne]

That doesn't explain why they have bullet proof glazing or 'rings & posts' to mount GPMG's from though? Maybe they just very powerful portable water cannons then!

 

[Woodlouse]

That doesn't explain why they have bullet proof glazing or 'rings & posts' to mount GPMG's from though? Maybe they just very powerful portable water cannons then!

If the gun on the front is a water cannon I should expect that the bullet proof glazing or the other gun mounts are simply a realisation that the vessel might find it's self involved in an operation that requires such equipment. Just like the police have armoured riot vans.

 

[johnabbott893]

If the gun on the front is a water cannon I should expect that the bullet proof glazing or the other gun mounts are simply a realisation that the vessel might find it's self involved in an operation that requires such equipment. Just like the police have armoured riot vans.

That's good. We can expect an independent complaints department as well then! Furthermore, we can expect them to stop entering our property (yachts) without a warrant or due cause can we? I think they are behaving like hooligans. Policing without the willing consent of the populous is just a police state. I think they are just a huge waste of my money. They are only going about their lawful business of harassing innocent public so that some politician can say "look what we are doing to protect the borders". That such action does nothing to protect the borders gets lost in the political debate.

 

[bromleybysea]

That's good. We can expect an independent complaints department as well then! Furthermore, we can expect them to stop entering our property (yachts) without a warrant or due cause can we? I think they are behaving like hooligans. Policing without the willing consent of the populous is just a police state. I think they are just a huge waste of my money. They are only going about their lawful business of harassing innocent public so that some politician can say "look what we are doing to protect the borders". That such action does nothing to protect the borders gets lost in the political debate.

I completely agree. I caught a programme on one of the freeview channels a few weeks ago about UKBA operations ashore. They dress like they are some sort of SWAT team, are rude and aggressive in situations where it is completely unjustified, and appear to be rather stupid.

 

[Woodlouse]

That's good. We can expect an independent complaints department as well then! Furthermore, we can expect them to stop entering our property (yachts) without a warrant or due cause can we? I think they are behaving like hooligans. Policing without the willing consent of the populous is just a police state. I think they are just a huge waste of my money. They are only going about their lawful business of harassing innocent public so that some politician can say "look what we are doing to protect the borders". That such action does nothing to protect the borders gets lost in the political debate.

Eh? All that from likening the need for arming a customs cutter to a riot van?

Just how exactly would you like to go about policing our shores? You have 120 men and five ships. Lets hear your propositions.


And just in case you are unaware, customs are entirely within the law searching your property afloat, and ashore without a warrant. So I think any complains in that order would fall on deaf ears to any commission.

 

[Twister_Ken]

"customs are entirely within the law searching your property afloat, and ashore without a warrant."

True, but is the BA a division of Customs?

 

[Woodlouse]

They operate from the HMRC cutters, so in that aspect I should imagine they work to similar guidelines and rules.

You've probably already seen it, but the powers and rights of a customs officer (and hence now the UKBA) have been posted in the other UKBA topic.

 

[timbartlett]

And just in case you are unaware, customs are entirely within the law searching your property afloat, and ashore without a warrant.

True, but is the BA a division of Customs?

What used to be Customs is now a part of UKBA.

So I think any complains in that order would fall on deaf ears to any commission

Any complaint about any civil servant falls on deaf ears, regardless of what is being complained about. Even those who are dogged enough to pursue a complaint all the way to the Parliamentary Ombudsman have only a 2.5% chance of having it investigated (by another civil servant!) -- with preference given to complaints that can be dismissed as being isolated incidents due to an error by an individual member of staff who has already left the department.

Has anyone noticed that in this great democracy of ours:-
* civil servants dictate to our elected representatives,
* police officers barge into the Palace of Westminster whenever they feel like it and start arresting MP's for doing their job.
* 99% of our legislation is "secondary legislation", created by civil servants and signed off by puppet ministers without any effective parliamentary scrutiny,
* more and more minor "crimes" are being decriminalised, and "fines" reclassified as "penalty charges", so that they can be dealt with in the County courts where there is no need to prove anyone guilty of the crime they are accused of.

 

[johnabbott893]

Just how exactly would you like to go about policing our shores? You have 120 men and five ships. Lets hear your propositions.

I would use some intelligence. Currently, the Government is doing something to be seen to be doing something. 120 men and 5 ships can create a great deal of visibility that achieves a great deal of political capital. The option paper produced when the lack of border protection became a hot potato for the Government will have identified what was required to implement proper border protection; we can't afford, would not tolerate and the EU probably would not allow such a border protection scheme. So we pay for what is nothing more than political expediency.

And just in case you are unaware, customs are entirely within the law searching your property afloat, and ashore without a warrant. So I think any complains in that order would fall on deaf ears to any commission.

Exactly! Customs are operating with powers that should have been rescinded long ago. They are probably permitted to use torture to extract details on where your bootleg brandy is stored.

 

[deuc02]

I completely agree. I caught a programme on one of the freeview channels a few weeks ago about UKBA operations ashore. They dress like they are some sort of SWAT team, are rude and aggressive in situations where it is completely unjustified, and appear to be rather stupid.

My post asking what powers they have was triggered after watching a similar or perhaps the same programme last night. It seems that we (the government I hasten to add) are empowering people of questionable intelligence to live out fantasies gained from watching trashy US cop shows and playing the latest shoot em up on their kids x-box. I guess it could be worse - we could be paying these people to harass us.......Ooops

 

[chris1084]

How else would you police the waters?

We are a very small island with many risks.

How else would you have our waters policed? because if you note the amount of things customs, or now UKBA, DO find and prevent, i say they are worth every penny.

Of course you are going to get the odd officer who is having a bad day or is a little power crazy, but the ones i have dealt with are generally polite and just want to do their thing and leave.

They arent interested in anything other than if you are hiding weapons, drugs or piles of money etc. If you dont behave like an idiot you generally wont get that response, it only takes five minutes and then you are on your way.

And the reason they are all kitted up like 'SWAT' is because they do regularly come into contact with those that do want to injure them.

Chris

 

[timbartlett]

We are a very small island with many risks. How else would you have our waters policed?

I find this machiavellian argument deeply depressing. If the end justifies any means, where do they stop? Why not just lock us all up without trial, and have done with it? They could always let us out (individually, to stop us congregating) from time to time so that we can earn the money to pay their salaries and pensions.

Of course you are going to get the odd officer who is having a bad day or is a little power crazy, but the ones i have dealt with are generally polite and just want to do their thing and leave.

My experience is that individual police officers and civil servants are usually fine -- particularly off duty. But when they are on duty , and particularly when they are in groups, some kind of Jekyll and Hyde change comes about. Courtesy, respect, and consideration become a rare exception, rather than the rule.

And the reason they are all kitted up like 'SWAT' is because they do regularly come into contact with those that do want to injure them.

When did you last hear of a customs or immigaration officer being assaulted or even threatened while visiting a yacht? From UKBA's ppoint of view, one attraction of random stop and searches is that the chance of meeting any serious law breakers is practically zero

 

[photodog]

How would I protect our Borders??


Well aside from the question of "What are we protecting them from????" I would point out that the current methods do not seem to have any impact on the availability of illegal and harmfull narcotics on our streets... or the availability of firearms in our inner cities, or seem to make any difference to the reduction of illegal immigration either...

We seem to expend a enormous amount of energy on protecting our borders from movments of goods and people who are already inside the EU... an effort which appears to do little more than annoy people and deny us the ability as individuals to enjoy free movment within the EU as afforded by citizens of the Schengen states...

So, this is what I would do...

I would sign up the the Schengen treaty, and get rid of these rediculous and no doubt costly border controls between us and the continent... I would then spend these resources on more focused intelligence lead policing inside the UK, and possibly help contribute resources to places were the real problems exist (Such as the South of Spain, Italy, Malta) and stop alot of the problems before they arrive in the EU.

I would also task the navy with providing a proper offshore patrol and protection function in the western approachs... I find it astonishing that a ship pirated in the Baltic was able to sail unhindered down the English Channel and disapear on the high seas....

We have a toothless and inneffective force spending money and doing nothing more than alienaiting the public, whilst at the same time we seem to have no real protection from real threats that the country does face...

And we are missing a trick by not helping out with the protection of the EU borders in the Med...

 

[wotayottie]

Not sure I want to say this but I agree with every word that Photodog has written.

I would only add that I would allow the police to question anyone with a brown face irrespective of any quotas they currently have to operate

 

[KellysEye]

We were boarded off Dungeness by four officers (fifth was driving) in a RIB in 2000. One officer was armed with a hand gun. Interestingly he stood about ten feet back from the others, who interviwed us in the cockpit and searched the boat. The only semi aggressive action was the first aboard shouted 'permission to come aboard' when he was already half way over the lifelines.

 

[timbartlett]

The only semi aggressive action was the first aboard shouted 'permission to come aboard' when he was already half way over the lifelines.

I'm intrigued that you regard this as only "semi-aggressive".
Given that the first was already aboard before he asked for your permission, and that his "request" was backed up by the persuasive power of four colleagues and a gun, what would they have had to have done for you to regard it as "aggressive"?