Another Tragic Incident in the Aegean

My use of the word excuses suggests nothing more than calling a spade a spade. Put yourself in the shoes of the refugees or better still imagine your children and grandchildren are among the millions fleeing for their lives. What should they do. Stay where they were to be killed or starve? Geo-political dynamic my foot.
 
Irish Rover said:
My use of the word excuses suggests nothing more than calling a spade a spade. Put yourself in the shoes of the refugees or better still imagine your children and grandchildren are among the millions fleeing for their lives. What should they do. Stay where they were to be killed or starve? Geo-political dynamic my foot.
Click to expand...

Nobody is denying the gravity of the situation and nobody has criticised these poor souls for fleeing war zones. A solution, however, must encompass realities such as organised criminals and those wishing to attack the west being sometimes deliberately mixed with the genuine refugees. There is the question that a more lenient Western response would simply invite other powers to whip up waves of forced migration to overwhelm the new system. Not to mention the economic, health, educational, and cultural challenges.

The fact is every single poster on here would wave a Disney wand at this problem if they could. Sadly, they don't have one and neither do you.
 
Last edited:
dom said:
Nobody is denying the gravity of the situation and nobody has criticised these poor souls for fleeing war zones. A solution, however, must encompass realities such as organised criminals and those wishing to attack the west being sometimes deliberately mixed with the genuine refugees. There is the question that a more lenient Western response would simply invite other powers to whip up waves of forced migration to overwhelm the new system. Not to mention the economic, health, educational, and cultural challenges.

The fact is every single poster on here would wave a Disney wand at this problem if they could. Sadly, they don't have one and neither do you.
Click to expand...
So would you stop them fleeing? Would you force them to stay in the war zones?
 
Irish Rover said:
This thread is about the plight of refugees who are forced to risk their lives to escape war zones and persecution. Put yourself in their shoes and see how hollow all the excuses for turning them away really are.
Click to expand...

You don't get it do you. The overwhelming majority are anything but refugees they are economic migrants. Refugees leave as families, grandparents, parents and children, these are mainly single men who have paid middlemen to get them to Europe.

The other problem is that we are stupid when it comes to refugees. A refugee is someone seeking refuge from tyranny or war not a passport. If we were to tell refugees from any nation that their status is review annually and that they will have to return to their country when it is safe to do so the public would be much more sympathetic to receiving them, if they do not agree to these terms then they are free to seek refuge somewhere else. Instead once we decide some one is a genuine refugee we give them "permanent leave to remain" which is utter madness. I have no sympathy with people who say that they have built a new life here, as far as I am concerned that was never part of the deal, we offer a refuge and refuge only not citizenship.
 
One of us certainly doesn’t get it. Seven of the nine people who drowned in the incident to which this thread refers were young children. As for your overwhelming majority claim - where did you dig up that drivel or did you just make it up yourself?
 
Seven Spades said:
You don't get it do you. The overwhelming majority are anything but refugees they are economic migrants. Refugees leave as families, grandparents, parents and children, these are mainly single men who have paid middlemen to get them to Europe.
Click to expand...

Statistics? Evidence? The "Daily Mail" doesn't count.

The other problem is that we are stupid when it comes to refugees. A refugee is someone seeking refuge from tyranny or war not a passport. If we were to tell refugees from any nation that their status is review annually and that they will have to return to their country when it is safe to do so the public would be much more sympathetic to receiving them, if they do not agree to these terms then they are free to seek refuge somewhere else.
Click to expand...

The overwhelming majority of refugees say that they want to return home as soon as it is safe or them to do so.

Instead once we decide some one is a genuine refugee we give them "permanent leave to remain" which is utter madness.
Click to expand...

Not quite. Refugee status is for five years only. After that you can apply for "Indefinite (not permanent) Leave to Remain" and if that is granted you can apply for citizenship after another year. All very sensible, really - if things haven't improved in your home country after five years we give you a chance to build a new life here.
 
As far as I am aware, all of the "refugees" referred to in this original post, were safe from the war zone from which they were fleeing. They would have been given food, shelter, clothes and medical treatment in Turkey. What were they in flight of, to get from Turkey to Greece? The adults involved in this incident, put the children's lives at needless risk, and contributed to their deaths. A couple of months ago, for the celebration of Ramadan, tens of thousands of refugees currently in turkey, crossed the border and returned to their homes in Syria for a holiday!!! It makes a mockery of refugee status!
 
I know some posters like to be controversial but surely they don’t need to stray beyond the bounds of normal common human decency to score a point.
 
Irish Rover said:
I know some posters like to be controversial but surely they don’t need to stray beyond the bounds of normal common human decency to score a point.
Click to expand...

As hard as you may find it to comprehend a considerable proportion of people do not share your values, perhaps you should be a little more tolerant of others' views?
 
The worst thing about sailing is other sailors. I have seen owners of £500,000 boats shout down a boy in shorts because they grabbed a line on the dock and asked for a dollar. Many have no empathy for other human beings. The way we live is wrong, chasing the bucks and looking down at anyone with less. We should ditch money altogether and start helping each other . This capitalist way is destroying the planet which confounds the problem. Kids working down mines so we can have the latest iPhone etc and then we kick off when the kid decides this is shit and wants a better life,
 
Elecglitch said:
As hard as you may find it to comprehend a considerable proportion of people do not share your values, perhaps you should be a little more tolerant of others' views?
Click to expand...
If I understand your point correctly you want me to be more tolerant of posters who go beyond the bounds of common human decency to score points- no thanks.
 
satsuma said:
As far as I am aware, all of the "refugees" referred to in this original post, were safe from the war zone from which they were fleeing. They would have been given food, shelter, clothes and medical treatment in Turkey. What were they in flight of, to get from Turkey to Greece? The adults involved in this incident, put the children's lives at needless risk, and contributed to their deaths. A couple of months ago, for the celebration of Ramadan, tens of thousands of refugees currently in turkey, crossed the border and returned to their homes in Syria for a holiday!!! It makes a mockery of refugee status!
Click to expand...

Certainly sounds odd, but is there an evidential basis for the ‘tens of thousands’ and ‘safe from the war’ assertions?
 
Last edited:
crocks said:
The worst thing about sailing is other sailors. I have seen owners of £500,000 boats shout down a boy in shorts because they grabbed a line on the dock and asked for a dollar. Many have no empathy for other human beings. The way we live is wrong, chasing the bucks and looking down at anyone with less. We should ditch money altogether and start helping each other . This capitalist way is destroying the planet which confounds the problem. Kids working down mines so we can have the latest iPhone etc and then we kick off when the kid decides this is shit and wants a better life,
Click to expand...

Brilliant! Proof that life exists on Mars!
 
I refer to my post #20. Are these unfortunate people lesser beings than the rest of us? Should they be content just because they are beyond the reach of the bombs and bullets in their home country? Should they be content because the have access to food handouts in camps? Should they have no aspirations for a better life for their kids?
 
Irish Rover said:
I refer to my post #20. Are these unfortunate people lesser beings than the rest of us? Should they be content just because they are beyond the reach of the bombs and bullets in their home country? Should they be content because the have access to food handouts in camps? Should they have no aspirations for a better life for their kids?
Click to expand...


An Alice in Wonderland world-freedom-pass where all of us are free to work where we like is unrealistic, unsupported by the United Nations, economically impossible, and strongly opposed by public opinion and democratically elected governments.

In fact, I think blue-sky, feel-good moralising does a grave disservice to the refugees in genuine need of our help and protection. It contributes to the, in most cases wrongful, public perception of refugees as opportunistic and sometimes aggressive economic migrants.
 
Last edited:
dom said:
An Alice in Wonderland world-freedom-pass where all of us are free to work where we like is unrealistic, unsupported by the United Nations, economically impossible, and strongly opposed by public opinion and democratically elected governments.

In fact, I think blue-sky, feel-good moralising does a grave disservice to the refugees in genuine need of our help and protection. It contributes to the, in most cases wrongful, public perception of refugees as opportunistic and sometimes aggressive economic migrants.
Click to expand...
Complete and utter rubbish. Thank God there’s still some humanity left in countries like Turkey and Lebanon.
 
dom said:
Ahh yes, Turkey, that great defender of human rights!

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/turkey
Click to expand...
I’d prefer to rely on the evidence of my own eyes than be influenced by self appointed judge and jury organisations whose motivations and funding are anything but transparent. As I said today on another thread there are reasons to be concerned about current events in Turkey but can any reasonable person have anything but admiration for the treatment of almost 4 million refugees from Syria.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top