Another spleen venting re brokers

[Chris_Robb]

That depends on whether a formal offer was made for the boat by Andrew. This is not clear.

Yes of course the surveyor is the best person to value a boat (probably) but there is absolutley NO provision in the standard sales contract for the broker to value the boat - only to say what the repairs will costs - and deduct from the offer made.

Andrews requirement for a valuation for finance needs to be sorted out BEFORE he makes an offer, or specified as such in the offer made - we havenot heard whether he actually made an offer - but I did see the words "subject to survey" so I presume he did.

 

[Chris_Robb]

My point entirely. Has Andrew made and offer? - subject to survey or what. If he has then the "valuation" is only relevant to his finance company, the vendor won't giove a stuff, as the contract will only specify money off or reinstate - specified faults - and those have to be adjusted for reasonable wear and tear for the age of the boat.

Sounds like he might need to agree to walk away - that is provided the contract will allow him to so do. Then he could start again and make an entirely new offer.

 

[Jonnysailboat]

Apologies Major, It certainly wasn't my intention to start an argument! I'm just genuinely interested in why people imagine a surveyor is qualified to value a boat! What you describe above is how a surveyor determines the condition of a boat; not its value!

A surveyor will, indeed, supply you with his opinion of value but it would have been determined using data supplied by brokers (e.g. www.soldboats.com – a part of YBW!). The initial asking price is usually agreed between the vendor and the broker; while the surveyor gives you an opinion of it’s worth relative to that asking price (based on his assessment of its condition and a web-search of similar specimens).

…I’m gonna shut my fat mouth and go away now!

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
That depends on whether a formal offer was made for the boat by Andrew. This is not clear
>>>
Yup, usual subject to survey. Offer based on loads of invoices that would give any reasonable person cause to believe that the engines were in reasonably serviced order, invoices for impellers, fixing a duff rev counter, work on fuel system etc. Money is sitting in my bank a/c rather than wating on a finance company taking an interest.
Surveyor was of the opinion that a boat supposedly commissioned for survey was not fully surveyable and therefore anything that could not be tested/surveyed had to be declared as u/s or suspect because to do otherwise would doubtless cause issues with his professional indemnity should there later be a problem that etc etc. As a result the valuation will have been presumably affected.
I'm not really hung up over the valuation and an insurance company will be more interested in the price actually paid. My issue really lies with the state of the boat which had apparently been recommissioned. An email today advised that some of the electrical issues have been traced to a duff battery installation, maybe. Frankly once the quote for sorting out the bits needing doing at that stage its fix, money off = to quote or walk time. OK, its only a couple of hundred miles but still a ballache trekking to and fro. Anyone recommend a really relaible engineer in the Broads area?
I'm not currently looking for a way out (fool that I am?), more exploring what one might expect the broker to do, as opposed to the glowing claims on a website, and what state you might expect a boat to be at survey.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]

…I’m gonna shut my fat mouth and go away now!

[/ QUOTE ] No, don't do that!

But, my argument is that a surveyor is more qualified to give a valuation because, besides the access he has to market price data, trends, his experience of boats and the business in general, he does something that a broker does not do and that is the survey including the grubbing about in bilges etc.

IMHO the surveyor is the best person to give and accurate value of a particular boat, rather than the general value a broker will give to a model of boat.

I have witnessed two surveys and in both cases the surveyor recommended a value for the boats he was surveying. The first he said it was worth £4,000 less than the broker's estimate and the other one he reckoned the boat was a few hundred underpriced, mainly because the broker hadn't bothered to notice that an almost brand new outboard motor was included in the deal and was 'hidden' in the lazerette.

With the first one the owner offered £4,500 under the price he was going to originally offer and still had his hand bitten off.

Again, the surveyors valuation won the day.

 

[ari]

[ QUOTE ]
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But you do expect a pre-owned car to be clean and functional inside and out and the car dealer does seem to see this as part of his job.

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Difference being car dealers own the cars they're selling whereas brokers don't own the boats the sell and therefore have no rights to do anything with them without the owners consent. Also; houses that are sold while occupied are maintained by the occupiers (vendors?); not the estate agents. Believe me; I've had many conversations with brokers on or around this very subject over the past few years! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I love business sectors that say, "Well, it's not done this way in this industry." Well, why doesn't someone break the mould and try a bit of pro-active selling instead of this awful attitude.

If I was running a brokerage, I would employ the boaty equivelant of the wash and bucket man you see on most used car forecourts and with permission of the owners, every boat would be swabbed, polished, hoovered and checked over in rotation.

After my experience at the so called great Essex Boatyards - I wouldn't step into their premises again if they were the last brokerage left - I thought back then that they were nothing better than a car breaker's yard, with disinterested staff and disgustingly dirty boats.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss the point. As has been said, brokerages are just marketing agents for private owners in exactly the same way estate agents are for houses.

I say again, do you expect your estate agent to come round and mow your lawn and hoover the carpets once you've listed your house with them for sale?

Anyway, I think you should start this brokerage business where you're spending all day every day out with your bucket and mop cleaning all of your listings. I shall be delighted to list my boat with you (for £10K more than it's worth) in return for a free valet every week, cheers! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Major Catastrophe]

My reply, with a poll

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
But you do expect a pre-owned car to be clean and functional inside and out and the car dealer does seem to see this as part of his job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Difference being car dealers own the cars they're selling whereas brokers don't own the boats the sell and therefore have no rights to do anything with them without the owners consent. Also; houses that are sold while occupied are maintained by the occupiers (vendors?); not the estate agents. Believe me; I've had many conversations with brokers on or around this very subject over the past few years! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I love business sectors that say, "Well, it's not done this way in this industry." Well, why doesn't someone break the mould and try a bit of pro-active selling instead of this awful attitude.

If I was running a brokerage, I would employ the boaty equivelant of the wash and bucket man you see on most used car forecourts and with permission of the owners, every boat would be swabbed, polished, hoovered and checked over in rotation.

After my experience at the so called great Essex Boatyards - I wouldn't step into their premises again if they were the last brokerage left - I thought back then that they were nothing better than a car breaker's yard, with disinterested staff and disgustingly dirty boats.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss the point. As has been said, brokerages are just marketing agents for private owners in exactly the same way estate agents are for houses.

I say again, do you expect your estate agent to come round and mow your lawn and hoover the carpets once you've listed your house with them for sale?

Anyway, I think you should start this brokerage business where you're spending all day every day out with your bucket and mop cleaning all of your listings. I shall be delighted to list my boat with you (for £10K more than it's worth) in return for a free valet every week, cheers! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a good job that every now and again someone comes along, thinks outside the box and runs a type of business in a different way, which often results in everyone else copying the model. I remember in the seventies that they said pizza home delivery would never work!

As usual ari, you twist facts and changed my <span style="color:blue">'I would employ the boaty equivelant of the wash and bucket man' </span> to your <span style="color:blue">'I think you should start this brokerage business where you're spending all day every day out with your bucket and mop cleaning all of your listings.' </span>

You do change peoples words to suit your spin quite often.

 

[ari]

Re: My reply, with a poll

Not a problem, I don't mind who cleans my boat for me if it's free. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You never answered my question about estate agents though. Given they do an identical job to brokers (except houses not boats), do you expect an estate agent you've commissioned to sell your house to come round (or send a man round to be totally accurate and remove all spin) and mow the lawn, clean the windows, have a hoover and dust through? And obviously all the other houses he has listed. And if not, why not? Surely you're not employing him just to take a few photos and write some blurb, are you..?

Incidently, I ticked "YES" in your poll. As I say, start your brokerage up and I'll definitely list my boat. I'd be delighted with a free cleannig service, cheers very much. And if you actually sell it for £10K more than it's worth I'll be even more pleased... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[andyball]

Re: My reply, with a poll

happy to mention Network Yacht Brokers at Northney Marina ( Hayling Island )

I can't vouch for more than one or two boats nearby to ours... but they certainly came & washed them down/checked them over/ ran the engines etc before potential buyers came by, and again on the day the new owners took possession.

I think you'd find any broker offering free storage would decline your £10K over-priced listing, or try to hook you some other way in the fine print.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Re: My reply, with a poll

[ QUOTE ]
do you expect an estate agent you've commissioned to sell your house to come round and mow the lawn, clean the windows, have a hoover and dust through?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a wind up merchant, aren't you?

No, I don't expect an estate agent to do that, I don't expect a broker to clean boats, but if a broker did clean boats (Actually, a man to do it) more people would take their boats to him and more people would go to him for boats as word got around.

When I was in Florida last, I visited two brokerages and two or three used dealers, all of whom had a Cuban polishing and cleaning the stock. It was a pleasure to look at clean and sparkling stock rather than the green floored mildewed leaf strewn stuff you see in most British boatyards. I am sure that when people go to look at boats, they shouldn't have to need a bath afterwards.

I accept that many brokers do not operate from 'yards', but even so, if they have a concentration of boats in a particluar marina it would pay them to look after the stock. Some enterprising broker could even offer this as an option for a larger commission or for a simple fee.

But, going back to estate agents, there is an agent in London who specialises in selling properties for overseas clients and they do have the lawns mowed and the windows cleaned etc, as it is their USP and it obviously pays them to make sure their clients properties are shown in the best light. Again, going back to Florida there was a TV programme a couple of years ago about a Brit couple who went there to buy a lawn mowing business. One of the businesses they looked at had a contract to mow lawns for a realtor who had many empty holiday homes on her books and she made sure that they were displayed at their best and it probably gave her an edge on the competition.

But, ari, you are probably right as usual, and I think some sort of law shoud be introduced to make sure that boat brokers don't change the way they work as it could be a revolution too far. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I really can't see your problem with this.

 

[DavidJ]

Having worked in India for a few years I'm always amused how the British do their bartering.
You don't have to come up with any logical reason for offering a much lower price. Just do it! If someone offers a higher price or the seller doesn't accept then you have to reconsider.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]
Having worked in India for a few years I'm always amused how the British do their bartering.

[/ QUOTE ] A few years ago in Bali, a bartering session I was involved in resulted in me paying more than the asking price!

 

[SP2]

I'll stick my oar in for what it's worth.

The brokers we were dealing with in Swansea (Dickies) could not be more helpful - I asked them to make sure we could start the engines as we were travelling from Essex. Whilst they achieved only 50% success on the first visit it was not for the want of trying and their guy spent 3 hours trying whilst I was there, let alone the time before I arrived.

I noticed that Boat Quays on the Medway (ex Florida Boats) offer a regular wash down for boats they are selling at Chatham (coz the builders are in and making a terrible mess).

That's a start, maybe?

What I struggle to understand is how brokers put pictures of the boats they are selling showing:

1. Bedding thrown back as if someone has just emerged from their pit.
2. Washing up left in the galley.
3. In one case - a rather ugly bloke emerging up the companionway steps obscuring the view.
4. Shoes cast adrift in the middle of the saloon.
5. Deck gear scattered.
6. Dinghys full of crud.

As it is a buyers market, surely making the boat you are selling shine brighter than the rest by a little application might earn you commission?

 

[Major Catastrophe]

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As it is a buyers market, surely making the boat you are selling shine brighter than the rest by a little application might earn you commission?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently, as estate agents don't mow lawns, boat brokers shouldn't clean boats.

Seriously, I am glad that some of them are making an effort and it is surely a 'cheap' form of marketing to make sure that not only the boat they are about to show is presented in a good light, but that casual tyre kickers can inspect boats without having to wipe green slime off their clothes, or as you say, inspect not only the boat, but also the bedding as well.

I think that Andrew's complaint is justified in that the broker did not present the boat in a proper condition for the surveyor to inspect and even make a valuation based upon its condition (Not that surveyors make valuations, apparently).

I have learned a lot from this thread. Surveyors do not value boats and brokers are there just to take commission if and when they accidentally sell a boat with a minimum of effort. I have also learned that there are some brokers out there that take some pride in the boats they are selling. I know who I would rather buy a boat through.

No wonder I have taken up virtual smoking.