Another one for the forum accident investigation board.

[Chris 249]

There was some commentary that they had "two babies' on board, according to remarks containing in one of the vids taken from the ship. It seems they may just have been teens. If they did have kids on board one can understand them getting them off, although I'd have thought you could have kept a couple of adults aboard.

They also seem to have managed to lose all the spars, which would make jury rigging difficult, and I don't know the conditions or the local harbours, apart from the fact that they seem to be about 200nm apart.

Unusually for me, I'm tempted to give the bail-out a pass because of the lack of spars for jury rigging, a possibly unsuitable crew, and a feeling that a guy who can lose his mast and his engine may not have any other sails. But then again if all those factors applied he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

 

[Poignard]

Of course, it's easy to say the skipper of that yacht ought not to have got himself into a situation where he lost his rig and his engine; but the fact is, he did.

So, having done so, and then being presented with the offer of being rescued, at no greater cost than the loss of his vessel, on what possible grounds could he justify not accepting that offer?

 

[Chris 249]

Of course, it's easy to say the skipper of that yacht ought not to have got himself into a situation where he lost his rig and his engine, but the fact is he did.

So, having done so, and then being presented with the offer of being rescued, at no greater cost than the loss of his vessel, on what possible grounds could he justify not accepting that offer?

Arguably one ground to not take up the offer is that it represents a breach of the spirit of self reliance that is vital for passagemaking and which is arguably getting eroded far too much by episodes like this, which subconsciously make people think that when it all gets too hard they can call for help.

I'm going to put on my crusty old bloke hat and say that there seem to be too many people who are putting on lot of electronics and personal safety equipment and then charging out offshore with little in the way of crewing in hard passages or even coastal sailing in high winds. I had two friends, both dinghy sailors but with no "proper" ocean experience, who tried to cross Bass Strait singlehanded on their 30 footers. One put out a Mayday and got towed in, the other's boat was found without him. As noted, both of them were good small boat sailors but neither had experience in living in heavy conditions offshore and moving around the deck while handing situations, such as you get from doing ocean races.

There's arguably too much emphasis these days on the technology and not enough on getting the experience to be able to live happily in heavy conditions, such knowing how to brace, knowing how to move around on the bow and handle stuff-ups. In addition the fact is that fewer people these days work with their hands and therefore they may lack the ability to jury rig and do other such tasks.

That means that when the unexpected happens people can call for help, and the very high number of incidents like this is arguably creating a mentality that offshore sailing does not require having physical and mental skills to cope with the unexpected including severe breakages. That's arguably dangerous. People should get the feeling that passagemaking inhernently requires the ability to get the boat home under jury rig because that is an excellent mentality for handling other dangerous situations when no help is at hand.

It's a bit like the "moral hazard" question in law; the more you make it seem easy to get out of a bad situation then the more others may get into a bad situation. There should arguably be a moral responsibility to not give up the ship, especially in this situation where any vulnerable crew could have been taken off.

 

[Poignard]

Arguably one ground to not take up the offer is that it represents a breach of the spirit of self reliance that is vital for passagemaking and which is arguably getting eroded far too much by episodes like this, which subconsciously make people think that when it all gets too hard they can call for help.

I'm going to put on my crusty old bloke hat and say that there seem to be too many people who are putting on lot of electronics and personal safety equipment and then charging out offshore with little in the way of crewing in hard passages or even coastal sailing in high winds. I had two friends, both dinghy sailors but with no "proper" ocean experience, who tried to cross Bass Strait singlehanded on their 30 footers. One put out a Mayday and got towed in, the other's boat was found without him. As noted, both of them were good small boat sailors but neither had experience in living in heavy conditions offshore and moving around the deck while handing situations, such as you get from doing ocean races.

There's arguably too much emphasis these days on the technology and not enough on getting the experience to be able to live happily in heavy conditions, such knowing how to brace, knowing how to move around on the bow and handle stuff-ups. In addition the fact is that fewer people these days work with their hands and therefore they may lack the ability to jury rig and do other such tasks. That means that when the unexpected happens people can call for help, and the very high number of incidents like these is arguably creating a mentality that offshore sailing does not mean having physical and mental skills to cope with the unexpected including severe breakages.

It's a bit like the "moral hazard" question in law; the more you make it seem easy to get out of a bad situation then the more others may get into a bad situation. There should arguably be a moral responsibility to not give up the ship, especially in this situation where any vulnerable crew could have been taken off.

I don't doubt what you say, and I can sympathise with your sentiments, but we are where we are. If the skipper was single-handing, and felt he should get out of the mess by his own efforts or die in the attempt, then of course that's up to him.

But, when others are involved, where does his primary duty lie then?

Should he abide by his duty of care as the man in charge, and try and minimise the chance of them losing their lives, or should he play the hero and uphold the finest traditions etc. and endanger them?

Where, in law, would that put him, supposing he survived and a crew member or child didn't?

 

[Mister E]

The spirit of life should be not to put others in needless danger if it can be avoided.
So you must accept help if offered and forget your pride.

 

[obmij]

How many miles off the coast of Morocco? Was there no opportunity for a commercial tow?

That would have been my first thought if at all possible.

Who knows? Glad it's not me!

 

[Chris 249]

I totally agree that the situation changes when others (and in this case it seems to have included kids) are being put at risk. Yep, one should not put others in needless danger, unless they are experienced adults who go in with their eyes open. I mentioned higher up that in this case, the skipper could possibly have put some crew off on the passenger ship and then brought the yacht in with one or two experienced adults. I can also understand his point of view in that it seems to be a mass-produced boat that is easily replaceable, which also affects the calculations.

The countervailing factor is that the spirit of self reliance, with its inherent consideration and preparation for breakages and major incidents, actually increases the long-term safety of the sailing community and of rescuers. The "hop in the raft and get help" mindset caused most of the casualties in the 1979 Fastnet and it's a very stern lesson in the importance of the right mindset IMHO.

By the way I've dropped a stick in nasty conditions offshore, had my dad killed MOB, been out searching for people I knew and felt the hours slip away as we realised we were now searching for their bodies, lost a rudder in the Hobart and had a rudder shaft leak while singlehandedly coast hopping my own boat so while I'm not accident prone, I've been in this sort of situation a bit.

 

[obmij]

You've had some horrendous experiences Chris. I'm sorry about that.

 

[ylop]

How many miles off the coast of Morocco? Was there no opportunity for a commercial tow?

That would have been my first thought if at all possible.

Who knows? Glad it's not me! -

cruise passengers have posted on YouTube - apparently 6-7m swell, 115 NM from land. Ship sent engineer to see if they could help get the engine running but was unable to do so.

 

[Bouba]

If you are rescued by a cruise ship....are drinks included ?

 

[obmij]

So no engine or rig, unlikely to be salvaged economically, shite conditions, kids on board and the prevailing winds and currents likely to send you off into the atlantic for a few months.

I would have canned it too.

 

[Bouba]

When conditions are extreme....it’s important to consider the welfare of the dog

 

[LittleSister]

If you are rescued by a cruise ship....are drinks included ?

That's why you have a VHF radio, so you can check these things out.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

If you are rescued by a cruise ship....are drinks included ?

Only if you have brought your DJ and bow tie.

At least we can joke about it, they’re all alive.

 

[Mister E]

It should be remembered that when it goes further wrong that others will be at risk attempting a rescue.
The idea that this boat was in a safe usable condition should not even be considered. The decision to abandoned is totally correct.

 

[xyachtdave]

Doesn’t anyone drown like a gentleman anymore?

 

[Biggles Wader]

If you are rescued by a cruise ship....are drinks included ?

Drinks yes but you will be required to tip the staff-----quite a lot!

 

[Stemar]

Doesn’t anyone drown like a gentleman anymore?

Beat me to it!

More seriously, it's quite possible that the engine failure was rigging round the prop. If the mast's sunk, but is still attached to the prop, they aren't going anywhere. An easy rescue now, or a much more difficult and dangerous one later? In my book, there's no decision to make

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Beat me to it!

More seriously, it's quite possible that the engine failure was rigging round the prop. If the mast's sunk, but is still attached to the prop, they aren't going anywhere. An easy rescue now, or a much more difficult and dangerous one later? In my book, there's no decision to make

When you say easy, coming alongside a fully rigged small craft at sea is never easy even when it’s fairly calm, as it appears there. One with no mast is another matter entirely. A high frequency rails under roll is perfectly usual there. From personal experience.

 

[sailorman]

If it had been a proper wooden boat with the axe they could fashion a mast and spars and with the lashings to hand rigged a square rig easy peasy

a vondee skipperwould have it sorted PDQ