Another non-pedantic COLREGS corner?

[Resolution]

Reading PRV's thread about stationary rowing boats made me think about another situation that crops up regularly.

Like many Hamble based yachts, we always motor off down the Hamble. Once we are in Southampton water we usually go head to wind and hoist the mainsail. This can be tricky to avoid fouling lazyjacks on battens, so requires careful keping head to wind and lowest possible speed through the water. In fact, usually we are in neutral (but engine running).

Now we always look for a clear bit of water in which to do this, but just say that one day we messed up and some powerboat zoomed in at high speed and was converging on our starboard side.........

Are we a power-driven vessel (momentum from when the engine had been engaged), a sailing vessel, or even a RAM?

Your opinions please!

 

[mihtjel]

If you hoist/light the correct signal, it's my impression that you can correctly claim to be a "vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre". Though probably not worth the bother.

Rule 3:

(b)The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery if fitted, is not being used.

If you're not using the engine, and you have sails up, you are presumably a sailing vessel. And the other vessel should judge this based on your day/night signals, and not on whether he can hear the sound of your engine .. though we all know that's not going to happen.

 

[prv]

With the main halfway up as you negotiate battens round lazyjacks, and providing no drive, can you really be described as "under sail"?

I guess if I were in that situation I could make sure to set my mizzen first - being the size of a large bathtowel I can set it in any situation and orientation to the wind, but if I then stopped the engine I'd definitely be under sail.



Pete

 

[john_morris_uk]

With the main halfway up as you negotiate battens round lazyjacks, and providing no drive, can you really be described as "under sail"?

Pete

The rules make no allowance for how efficiently or poorly you are sailing. If the engine is in gear then you are a power driven vessel, and if it is in neutral then you are a sailing vessel.

You can't just chop and change to suit your situation under IRPCS though... In and out of gear sounds like power driven vessel to me, although others might have different views.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

Are we a power-driven vessel (momentum from when the engine had been engaged), a sailing vessel, or even a RAM?

A very common mis-understanding. RAM is due to the nature of your work. If you want to claim it then lays some pipes of the stern, dredge the Hamble spit and put some diving gear over the side.

You are still a power vessel despite being in neutral as you are still relying on power for your primary means of propulsion. Short of battery charging you are relying on it or it would not be on.

Does a motor cruiser stop being a power boat when he slips into neutral?

 

[BrendanS]

Personally, as a powerboater, I'd recognise what you are up to, and steer well clear, but that has nothing to do with colregs, and just common sense, and some knowledge of practical boating and sailing. If people don't have that knowledge, they tend to acquire it after a period on here, which is why forums are a good thing!

 

[Kawasaki]

Personally, as a powerboater, I'd recognise what you are up to, and steer well clear, but that has nothing to do with colregs, and just common sense, and some knowledge of practical boating and sailing. If people don't have that knowledge, they tend to acquire it after a period on here, which is why forums are a good thing!

Brendan
Marvelous
I think unknowingly you may have just mentioned a new rule or two to that need to be added to 'The Regs' I reckon

'Rule' 5001 Use Common sense
'Rule' 5002 Read YBW Forum.

 

[Elessar]

Brendan
Marvelous
I think unknowingly you may have just mentioned a new rule or two to that need to be added to 'The Regs' I reckon

'Rule' 5001 Use Common sense
'Rule' 5002 Read YBW Forum.

no no no!

5001 will help for sure

5002 will drive you mad and mean you'll have hit 3 boats whilst considering all the contradictory and sometimes erroneous advice!

 

[lw395]

Firstly, I'd want to sort the systems out so that the main could be hoisted quickly and efficiently.
I've never been a fan of lazyjacks, but I don't think they shoud be stopping you hoisting the main in a seamanlike fashion.
It should not take more than a minute to hoist the main to a point where you can bear off and sail.
You shouldn't be doing this in the path of a boat that's less than a minute away.

It's another situation where colregs are unclear about how quickly you acquire stand on status.

Equally a power boat should be able to alter course slightly and go behind you, but be prepared for the wash, which isn't nice when you are busy with the halyard.

Southampton water is a busy old place, you won't be the only boat that the power boat wants to keep clear of.

I tend to get the sail up adequately to sail, get under way, then tidy up details like luff tension separately, even if you have to luff up at a convenient point to do so.

 

[dt4134]

It's common sense to keep out of the way of boats hoisting their mainsails, but I certainly don't believe they are restricted in their ability to manuovre and wouldn't assume other boats would give way to me.

If the sails are halfway up & you have to give way it's no hardship to bear off for a while if you're under motor. The only time it might be difficult is for a racer where a crew member has to support the boom during the hoist, but then they're likely to be quite slick hoisting the main anyway.

 

[Resolution]

lw395: "Firstly, I'd want to sort the systems out so that the main could be hoisted quickly and efficiently.
I've never been a fan of lazyjacks, but I don't think they shoud be stopping you hoisting the main in a seamanlike fashion.
It should not take more than a minute to hoist the main to a point where you can bear off and sail."

You are undoubtedly right that all sail controls should, in an ideal world, be quick and efficient. Most times, our main goes up pretty straight and takes about one minute from start to fully hoisted. However, if we get off course and no longer head to wind, then you simply cannot hoist without catching the batten ends in the lazyjacks. Then it is time to get head to wind (or push the boom out to the equivalent position). On bad days I guess we may take two minutes to full hoist.
The really big advantage of the lazyjacks is on the drop, when our main comes down clean and straight in 10 seconds, every time. No need to spend minutes up on the coachroof trying to tame flapping bundles of sail, just tighten the mainsheet to stop the boom rolling around, then head off to the berth. Very effective. Sure beats the old racing days when most of the crew would be up there to help roll the slippery mylar sail.

 

[mihtjel]

... I certainly don't believe they are restricted in their ability to manuovre ...

As I understand the IRPCS, the decision whether to hoist the signal rests with the skipper, and if a vessel displays such a signal, it should be accepted as "the truth". It might be relevant when short- or single-handed, in particular if crew have to go to the mast to hoist the sail.

But then again, if you don't display the signal, you certainly don't have any rights in that regard.

 

[alan_d]

But then again, if you don't display the signal, you certainly don't have any rights in that regard.

Except that Rule 27(g) exempts vessels of less than 12 metres from displaying RAM and NUC lights and shapes; it doesn't say they cannot be accorded that status.

 

[Danny Jo]

A new forum oxymoron?

Seeing "non-pedantic" and "colregs" in the same thread handle made me think that this was a new "sailing oxymoron" thread.

My approach to thorny rule of the road questions (and in spite of a recently-stated view to the contrary, I think rule of the road is a much more descriptive term than either colreg or IRPCS) is to attempt to see the developing situation through the eyes of the man or woman at the helm of the other vessel.

The helm of a mobo that sees a sailing vessel, with a half-raised main flapping in the breeze, stationary in her path is going to react in very much the same way as the forumite recently confronted with a rowing vessel stationary in his path. Manoeuvre around it, of course. Call it ordinary seamanship, common sense, or whatever, no reasonable person is going to stand on sounding five blasts of the horn the while, unless he happens to be piloting a supertanker and you are in the middle of the channel.

Notwithstanding what one might expect of common sense, ordinary seamanship, or strict adherence to some other more precise, if not arcane, interpretation of the rule of the road, don't forget one thing: that the approaching vessel may not have seen you (whether because they've just spilt coffee on their lap, their head is down trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with the autopilot, or they've switched the autopilot on while they nip down to put on the kettle). The practice of ordinary seamanship dictates that you should never voluntarily be a vessel "not under command".

 

[lw395]

Well put, Danny Jo.

Nothing in the colregs allows you to deliberately put yourself out of control in the path of another vessel.

If the waters where you sail are too busy for your methods of boat handling, you need to seriously think about those methods.

Just because you are hoisting sail, it should not mean you are out of control. You should be able to stop, go forwards, adjust heading etc.

Coming out of Portsmouth Harbour is similar, sometimes you have to go a fair distance to find enough space to hoist the main, particularly if you don't have the crew on board to do it quickly. Sometimes it's better to get the main up on a mooring or up harbour. You should have a plan for these things. If the wind direction makes it particularly difficult, maybe reach under genoa only until you have more space.

I guess there is some point to roller furling mains after all?
If there is a problem with the lazyjacks, sort it! Make them quickly detachable and take the aft ones off while you hoist perhaps? Talk to the makers of the better systems, some boats don't have these problems, so they can be fixed.

 

[Evadne]

My approach to thorny rule of the road questions (and in spite of a recently-stated view to the contrary, I think rule of the road is a much more descriptive term than either colreg or IRPCS) is to attempt to see the developing situation through the eyes of the man or woman at the helm of the other vessel.

The helm of a mobo that sees a sailing vessel, with a half-raised main flapping in the breeze, stationary in her path is going to react in very much the same way as the forumite recently confronted with a rowing vessel stationary in his path. Manoeuvre around it, of course. Call it ordinary seamanship, common sense, or whatever, no reasonable person is going to stand on sounding five blasts of the horn the while, unless he happens to be piloting a supertanker and you are in the middle of the channel.

That's why they are called the IRPCS, and not the rules of the road. The basic assumption is that boats will try and avoid hitting each other (unless they are racing ). Common sense is the usual tool of choice but in cases where it is not obvious who should do what, and when, there are a set of rules governing behaviour. This is purely to avoid collisions, although it does have the side effect of producing long, involved and highly entertaining threads that bear only a passing resemblance to reality.

 

[TamarMike]

That's why they are called the IRPCS, and not the rules of the road. The basic assumption is that boats will try and avoid hitting each other (unless they are racing ). Common sense is the usual tool of choice but in cases where it is not obvious who should do what, and when, there are a set of rules governing behaviour. This is purely to avoid collisions, although it does have the side effect of producing long, involved and highly entertaining threads that bear only a passing resemblance to reality.

Well phrased

 

[snowleopard]

It should not take more than a minute to hoist the main to a point where you can bear off and sail.

I'd be delighted if you could come over and show me how to do that! My main has a 50 ft luff and weighs a hundredweight. It needs to be winched up most of the way. The only way I've managed it in under 5 minutes was to tell a group of teenage girls it was man's work.

Fortunately I don't have to round up to hoist it.

 

[lw395]

I'd be delighted if you could come over and show me how to do that! My main has a 50 ft luff and weighs a hundredweight. It needs to be winched up most of the way. The only way I've managed it in under 5 minutes was to tell a group of teenage girls it was man's work.

Fortunately I don't have to round up to hoist it.

The main luff on my lightwave was also 50ft give or take a few cm. The main luff was on sliders, of the cheap plastic flavour.
With a main halyard that comes out of a slot in side the mast about 8ft off the deck, and a temporary cleat, I could reach up, pull down, cleat. Repeat about 10 -12 times, it's near enough to bear off and sail.
Tidy the tail (if you have a blonde assistant, she does this while you are hoisting), load it on winch, luff up and tension.

If the crew (or helm) can pull the slack back through the clutch as you hoist, that may be better still. Otherwise you have to trust the rope won't drop out of the cleat etc etc. Some yachts use the biggest clamcleats, others Harken cam cleats (big metal type). You could have a clutch, but most add a lot of friction. Whatever, it has to work well with the rope in question, and watch out for the rope getting old and stiff...


Getting rid of as much friction as possible helps, make sure the sliders and track are clean and waxed/siliconed/ptfe'd. Make sure halyard is not too fat for the masthead sheave. Ease the outhaul to ensure the lower sliders are not loaded up.

I know cats are prone to having comedy amounts of weight aloft in the shape of battens and heavy cloth. One cat I sailed on had a 2:1 halyard, which worked really well.
How much of that hundredweight is battens, could you get some lighter carbon ones?
Winching is grossly inefficient. Also novices don't notice when something is stuck and just keep winding! However when I can no longer do it properly, I will probably get a boat with an electric winch!

The above method is how 2 of us used to pull up the main on an 80ft maxi when weren't trying to exercise the guests with pointless winching....