Another Myth Busted... ICC Not required for Croatia.

[toad_oftoadhall]

For the last few years I've assumed an ICC was required for Croatia. I'd only heard it on YBW - God knows why I took it at face value but I did. [1]

Anyway it's a complete myth, they accept a huge range of alternatives [2] many of which are cheaper and less hassle that setting aside a weekend morning and sending off cash every 5 years:
http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/novo-TABLICA ENGLISHMoU (2) 4_12.pdf

I'm not able to confirm it but I've seen at least two sources that say you can turn up without and take a test there and then anyway.

[1] Try googling: "site:www.ybw.com/forums ICC Croatia". and read a few - it's repeated over and over again.

[2] Including RYA shorebased.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Son and a pal ( plus mates girls etc) were allowed to charter in Croatia without any bits of paper at all - and that was on a brand new 50 footer!

But as ever, Toad, you risk falling foul of some local official / local law / local practise which can cause you real pain whatever the legal basis.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

But as ever, Toad, you risk falling foul of some local official / local law / local practise which can cause you real pain whatever the legal basis.

Well yes, but an ICC can't protect you from local official / local law / local practice. The local official / local law / local practice might require a Day Skipper rather than an ICC. Or it might require 7 fire extinguishers, or a spare liferaft. You just can't guess.

All you can do is find out what is actually required and make sure you have it.

 

[mike_bryon]

“For the last few years I've assumed an ICC was required for Croatia”

Hi Toad,

If you arrive by sea

I’ve cleared in and out of Croatia a few times and more than once the rules changed between my visits. I would therefore avoid making assumptions about their rules relating to documents, regulations and taxes.

A good source of information on Croatia, Slovenia and Montenegro is the pilot book 777. I only have the (out of date) 08/09 edition to hand but it states that on arrival: “you should produce the following documents the crew’s passports, the skipper’s certificate of competency, the crafts ownership and seaworthiness papers and the third party insurance certificates.” (Page 99).

On each visit I had to obtain (pay for) a navigation permit. In those days every craft had to but the cert of competence and insurance was required only for craft over 3m. The last couple of visits they had rules relating to a crew list (which you completed on arrival and had to be kept up-to-date and onboard). On arrival within the inner maritime boarder pleasure craft must proceed to the nearest customs port for clearance.

I have always found their authorities meticulous.

 

[RichardS]

My posts on this forum have always stated that you must have a recognised certificate of competence to sail in Croatia but I've never said, nor recall seeing anyone else say, that this must be an ICC. An RYA certificate, or the equivalent from other country, is just as acceptable.

I have been in a harbour and spoken to charterers who could not produce a certificate and were trooping down to the harbourmaster to take their test before they were allowed to take the boat out.

Last year I was told by the marina administrator that the law had changed again and that the harbourmaster test was only a transition arrangement and that had now stopped. She said quite categorically that if you don't arrive with your certificate you don't get to sail!

Richard

 

[Tranona]

My posts on this forum have always stated that you must have a recognised certificate of competence to sail in Croatia but I've never said, nor recall seeing anyone else say, that this must be an ICC. An RYA certificate, or the equivalent from other country, is just as acceptable.

Exactly. But when you have to deal with Toad you have to suspend normality.

Don't recall anybody ever saying that an ICC was compulsory - only as you state you need to demonstrate competence and the ICC is accepted.

Of course Toad is so behind on the issue that he has only just discovered the list published by the Croatian authorities so of course he has to declare a "Myth" that never existed except in his own mind.

A seriously sad person.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Exactly. But when you have to deal with Toad you have to suspend normality.

Don't recall anybody ever saying that an ICC was compulsory

I posted a link in my OP so it would be easy to check. However I've invested 30 seconds in finding a couple:


Tranona: "Croatia is different and an ICC is needed for a visitor to get a cruising permit"

Tranona: "However, the advice is that it is prudent to have an ICC, and compulsory if you want to enter the major European Inland Waterways. As noted above, you will definitely need it if you go to Croatia,"

Barnacle: "If no ICC is possessed then they will insist on you taking a competency test when declaring in - and they will charge you for it."

ReneJK: "I dont know if you are making your way to Croatia but the ICC currently is a requirement there , without it you wont get your "Vignet" and sticker that allow you to cruise croatian waters "

Brendan: "in the Mediterranean an ICC is usually required, particularly in Italy, Greece, Croatia and Turkey."



It might be a laugh to do a charity weekend finding instances of this myth. I reckon I could get to 100 with a longish search.

 

[Tranona]

Anyway it's a complete myth,

There is absolutely no "myth" other than your own creation.

I suggest you read the RYA page on Croatia which clearly states what is required to show skipper's competence in that country.

All your problems and misunderstandings would be solved if you bothered to join the RYA and take advantage of the enormous amount of reliable free information available on the subjects that seem to bother you.

Then you would not have to be continually fabricating your own (incorrect) versions of reality.

Once you have absorbed all that and you are still uncertain about specifics then the logical course of action is to take the matter up directly with the RYA rather than peddling your uncertainties here.

 

[ReneJK]

I am not going to start mending my words and as I am a simple person , foreigner on top of that and I do not understand all the nuances of the english language ........you still need an ICC (or country specific equivalent document) for Croatia .... except .... belgium citizens are the only exceptions are far as I know but since I do not know maritime law for each country I am not sure !!!!! Belgium did not sign the EC ICC treaty so they dont have n ICC or equivelent , the croatians know and accept this

but be my guest and try to get a Croatian cruising permit (as a UK citizen) without an ICC (or country specific blah blah blah blah enter disclaimer here)

Rgds
-Rene

and I refuse to put all my words on a gold scale and measure them first for absolute correctness as this is a normal open forum where normal 'spoken word language and scentences' are used and not a law firm that needs to apply for new rules and laws

 

[tawhiri]

ICC

Well you are all right, but I do not know what all the drama is about.
You can get a so called Croatian licence by answering some simple ( and I mean really simple ) questions on Saturday morning before taking to the water. A friend of mine did this, two years ago, but this cost time money and has a limited duration. He will have to do it again the next time he goes there and is not valid outside there territorial waters. An ICC is defiantly the way to go for any serious sailor. I do not want to try to use the local licence in a court of law if there is an insurance claim.
I have been cruising the Adriatic for the 5 years now and last year was the first time I was ask to show my ICC, (twice in the same year). In fact the only paper the authorities are really interested in is the crew list. I can only assume there fresh interest in checking you have a licence is because the number of charter boat has probably doubled every year, for the last ten years and with that, more and more accidents are happening.
Andrew

 

[BrianH]

Perhaps previous posters were simplifying the requirement, especially as earlier that was the only qualification they publicised.

The subject document quoted by Toad is relatively recent and even the official Croatian maritime web site here flags it as "new":
"new: Recognized certificates for operating boats and yachts"

 

[SimbaDog]

Well, last time I was there, a UK couple were refused their flotilla boat as neither had an ICC! I took them out sailing for the odd day.

 

[RichardS]

You can get a so called Croatian licence by answering some simple ( and I mean really simple ) questions on Saturday morning before taking to the water. A friend of mine did this, two years ago, but this cost time money and has a limited duration. He will have to do it again the next time he goes there and is not valid outside there territorial waters.

Andrew - You might want to caution your friend that the option to take the local test was apparently rescinded in 2010 so he should definitely contact the charter company before leaving the UK if they return to Croatia (unless thay have an RYA/ICC by now)

Richard

 

[chrisgee]

“For the last few years I've assumed an ICC was required for Croatia”

Hi Toad,

If you arrive by sea

I’ve cleared in and out of Croatia a few times and more than once the rules changed between my visits. I would therefore avoid making assumptions about their rules relating to documents, regulations and taxes.

A good source of information on Croatia, Slovenia and Montenegro is the pilot book 777. I only have the (out of date) 08/09 edition to hand but it states that on arrival: “you should produce the following documents the crew’s passports, the skipper’s certificate of competency, the crafts ownership and seaworthiness papers and the third party insurance certificates.” (Page 99).

On each visit I had to obtain (pay for) a navigation permit. In those days every craft had to but the cert of competence and insurance was required only for craft over 3m. The last couple of visits they had rules relating to a crew list (which you completed on arrival and had to be kept up-to-date and onboard). On arrival within the inner maritime boarder pleasure craft must proceed to the nearest customs port for clearance.

I have always found their authorities meticulous.

I understand all of the paperwork you refer to except the " seaworthiness papers" what are these and where do you get them?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Well yes, but an ICC can't protect you from local official / local law / local practice. The local official / local law / local practice might require a Day Skipper rather than an ICC. Or it might require 7 fire extinguishers, or a spare liferaft. You just can't guess.

.

Thats exactly what you have to do - guess. OK you can use common sense. Some docs like proof of ownership ( SSSR) , proof of competence ( ICC) and proof of insurance (policy in local language) and finally proof of identity ( passport) are fairly obvious. So is keeping a log but you would do that anyway. I would add having all the dated items like flares and raft up to date. Plus a friendly smile for visiting jobsworths and an offer of coffee.

It's simply impractical to try and find out the local laws in everywhere you visit. For example, do you read the byelaws for every UK harbour you visit? I guess not, but they are all a bit different and ignorance is no legal excuse. The reality is that they dont matter for 99% of the time so you use common sense and hope for the best.

Arguing with officials / police can spoil your day.

 

[Sailfree]

Toad as always you are right but only by misrepresenting the truth.

We chartered in Croatia 2 yrs ago and what I now appreciate was to bypass/fiddle/satisfy the Croation authorities we were requested to bring a passport size photo and were issued by the charter company with an official looking card with the RYA logo on it.

One of our boats was stopped and the card seemed to satisfy them.

HOWEVER.

1. The company no longer operates in Croatia

2. On stating our experience on this fiorum I got a PM from the RYA who pointed out that the company had effectively done something to misrepresent the RYA issued ICC and requested that I named the company.

Due to point 1 above I declined. In my case and for the majority of the charterers we also held a valid ICC.

I understand that you love starting Trolls and respond in a provocative way to goad people in continuing long threads but I do wish you would not spread such misinformation around as less experienced people could be mislead resulting in them being fined or bigger problems.

I would like to put this in perspective in France over probably some 170 days I have only witnessed one person being marched off the the cash machine to pay a fine for not having the original ships papers which the RYA have kindly clarified that the papers must satisfy the authorities that the boat has the right to fly the flag it does. The wording is the registration papers issued by that country so for the UK put simply it means an Part 1 or an SSR.

For Croatia they require an ICC or qualification that they list that are accepted as adequate or an equivalent. On 1 day out of 14 we saw the authorities going from charter boat to charter boat to foreign flagged boats inspecting papers. The intensity in this one area made it appear like an local industry. I am unaware of whether the uthorities had quotas to fill of like the Spanish Police were allowed to retain a % of the fines.

For anyone going abroad on a sailing holiday i recommend checking with the RYA. If you go with a charter company they can usually advise or maybe know ways of circumventing the local regulations but you do so at your peril.

 

[Lady Campanula]

I wonder if we can bring a little bit of zenophobic clarity to this. Can anyone advise where we require - and not require - an International Certificate of Competence?

• around mainland UK
• among the British offshore isles e.g, Scilly, Wight, Dogs
• about the Principality and the Province
• The Isle of Man and the Channel Isles
• Eire and adjacent coasts of France
• European coasts, Brest to Elbe
• Her Majesty's Possessions Overseas
• Far-flung Foreign

In my experience, the further one strays from the Home Counties ( and commutable distance from the 'Home Office' ), the stranger and more bizarre are the local customs among the denizens and fuzzy-wuzzies one encounters.

One must maintain standards. I recommend waving one's Britannic Majesty's Passport and speaking at them in a loud voice. More often than not, that does the trick....

 

[Tranona]

I wonder if we can bring a little bit of zenophobic clarity to this. Can anyone advise where we require - and not require - an International Certificate of Competence?

• around mainland UK
• among the British offshore isles e.g, Scilly, Wight, Dogs
• about the Principality and the Province
• The Isle of Man and the Channel Isles
• Eire and adjacent coasts of France
• European coasts, Brest to Elbe
• Her Majesty's Possessions Overseas
• Far-flung Foreign

In my experience, the further one strays from the Home Counties ( and commutable distance from the 'Home Office' ), the stranger and more bizarre are the local customs among the denizens and fuzzy-wuzzies one encounters.

One must maintain standards. I recommend waving one's Britannic Majesty's Passport and speaking at them in a loud voice. More often than not, that does the trick....

You don't need anybody here to give you this information. As you have already probably found out it is not a reliable source.

Simply go onto the RYA site and you will find all the answers there. If, after reading all the information you are still unclear (which would be surprising) then you can always ask them to clarify.

 

[timbartlett]

...you are right but only by misrepresenting the truth....

I don't see how anyone can be right "by misrepresenting the truth": if anyone feels they have to deliberately misrepresent the truth in order to win an argument then they are probably wrong.

But clearly the fact that there are contradictory opinions being expressed about a question of fact means that somebody must be wrong.

If we discount the possibility that anyone is being deliberately misleading, then I suggest that the most likely explanation is the "chinese whispers" phenomenon:-
Somebody makes an honest generalisation -- "many countries require proof of competence"
Someone makes another generalisation -- "an ICC is a cheap and simple way of proving your competence"
The two get rolled in together -- "it's a good idea to have an ICC to prove your competence when you go boating abroad"
But then it starts to go wrong: "it's a good idea" becomes "XYZ says you should have an ICC when you go boating abroad"
which becomes "XYZ says you must have an ICC when you go boating abroad"
then UVW publishes a book that says "XYZ says you must have an ICC when you go boating abroad"
so it becomes "UVW and XYZ both say you must have an ICC when you go boating abroad"
Before long it has appeared on websites all over the world: "British yachtsmen must have an ICC when they go boating abroad"
Then foreign officials read it, and think that "All British yachtsmen must have ICCs".

Before long, you have the ludicrous situation in which a commercially endorsed Yachtmaster finds himself being asked to produce an ICC because a foreign official's boss has read about the ICC on a website somewhere and decided to tell his subordinates to demand sight of an ICC because that is much simpler than checking through the list of documents that his own national government has deemed acceptable.

No-one is being dishonest. But innocent people end up getting "inconvenienced" at best. And its not just certificates of competence.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Just to remove any doubts:

Croatia lists all the requirements that apply to yachtsmen very clearly, and the many Cruising Association members cruising these waters keep the member pages of our web site up to date by forwarding relevant documents as soon as anything changes.

At present, to be in charge of a vessel in Croatia, you are required to carry a proof of your competence which may be inspected at any time.

Croatia (uniquely as far I know) produces definitive lists of documents issued by a range of nations which are acceptable as proofs of competence. For UK, 15 documents are quoted, some issued by MCA for commercial and large vessels, and some by the RYA for leisure vessels.

So, to be pedantic, an ICC is not required. However, one of the listed certificates of competence is required.