ANOTHER MAJOR KEEL FAILURE: What Really Happened to Polina Star III?

[Lozzer]

Tranona

I accept what you are saying. Not sure why there has to be a kangaroo court on this and other forums. Itis not down to us to decide who is at fault, that is for the parties involved.

I am somewhat bemused by the amount of people on here taking cheap shots at Oyster. Must be a lot of disgruntled boat show people or ex employees.

We have already spoken about the what if, in fact we have discussed it with oyster and we are very happy. Therefore looking forward to taking delivery and doing some serious sailing.

 

[prv]

I know JFM, met him a few times. I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth but I am sure he is more interested in the pleasure he gets from his yacht than the residual value.

I'm also sure that he's more interested in his own pleasure, but that's not the same thing as "not looking at the residual value before they buy". And I don't need to need to put words in his mouth, he says it quite straightforwardly himself:

I have a decent wedge of cash tied up in boats but try as best i can to run a strategy of getting as much as poss back on re-sale.
[...]
if you can get some must-have customisations that make the boat stand out but don't create Mangusta-syndrome, like in my case stabs, extra fuel, and extra windows etc, you can get a price premium compared with others on resale. It's important that these things are not easily retrofittable too.

Lots of other mentions of "resale" in that thread, like making the flybridge boat-deck strong enough for the next owner's jetski even though he himself was only having a Laser, etc.

I do believe that Polina Star III was UK registered (Marine Traffic) therefore I assume there will be a MAIB report which is published.

Here's the MAIB's list of investigations in progress: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...t-investigation-branch-current-investigations

You will note that Polina Star is not on it, therefore there will be no report from the MAIB.

Pete

 

[prv]

I am somewhat bemused by the amount of people on here taking cheap shots at Oyster.

They built a boat that broke in two seemingly without any provocation. Of course they should expect criticism!

Pete

 

[lw395]

They built a boat that broke in two seemingly without any provocation. Of course they should expect criticism!

Pete

I'm a fan of Oyster as my username suggests.
Obviously I'm more concerned with the cheaper older end of their output!
But they do have some explaining to do.

But it is right that the informed public demand information about this kind of thing, the industry has to be held to account somehow.
Whether it is the designer, builder, operator or whoever at fault, every major failure needs properly looking at in the open.

I'm very surprised this has happened to an Oyster.
It may well not be a build problem, it could be (for instance) damage from a sunken object. Sabotage even.

But it is not a unique incident, many of us perceive a wider problem of understanding 'what is strong enough' in a modern structure, and big issues in detecting, evaluating and repairing damage.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

I'm a fan of Oyster as my username suggests.
Obviously I'm more concerned with the cheaper older end of their output!
But they do have some explaining to do.

But it is right that the informed public demand information about this kind of thing, the industry has to be held to account somehow.
Whether it is the designer, builder, operator or whoever at fault, every major failure needs properly looking at in the open.

I'm very surprised this has happened to an Oyster.
It may well not be a build problem, it could be (for instance) damage from a sunken object. Sabotage even.

But it is not a unique incident, many of us perceive a wider problem of understanding 'what is strong enough' in a modern structure, and big issues in detecting, evaluating and repairing damage.

We expect existing owners to be partisan, after all Oyster owners on the forum will be keen to defend their investment! But claiming the keel loss was a result of sabotage sounds desperate. Reminds me of a mate who worked in customer services for Porsche then Jaguar in the 90's. Jaguar owners were the easiest to deal with, they expected faults and it was easy to exceed their expectations, Porsche owners however didn't expect faults and all reacted very badly when problems occurred. There were fewer Porsche faults but the percentage difference was much smaller than the perceived difference.

 

[Resolution]

Tranona

I accept what you are saying. Not sure why there has to be a kangaroo court on this and other forums. Itis not down to us to decide who is at fault, that is for the parties involved.

I am somewhat bemused by the amount of people on here taking cheap shots at Oyster. Must be a lot of disgruntled boat show people or ex employees.

.

Lozzer
Only a very small percentage of this particular forum either own Oysters or have any aspirations to owning an Oyster. Some time back there was a poll on size of boat owned by participants on the forum. From my hazy memory I think most were in the 30 to 40 foot zone, not many any bigger. The cynic in me suggests therefore that some of the comments here about this particular incident are made from positions of envy more than actual knowledge of modern large boat construction. Unfortunately their comments can obscure those made by the forumites with real technical knowledge, who create the real value of these forum discussions.

PS I do not own an Oyster!

PPS Lozzer, I see you have been on the forum longer than I. Sorry for teaching you how to suck eggs.

 

[Lozzer]

Pete

I had noted that there was not incident report so not expecting anything from MAIB.

Thinking about residual value before buying such a high ticket item like this is useless as you will only be dissatisfied with the end result. Of course you can try to make your purchase more desirable for the secondhand market but then you are hoping there is going to be one at the time of selling. Then how many other yachts are being sold at that time..

I agree with JFM's MO however from my experience once a benchmark has been set it is very difficult to up sell no matter how many differentiators you might have. Things like the cost of fuel can have a massive effect on the residual value....

I still don't see the need for the witch hunt being carried out by people unlikely to be buying the product. Any potential buyer will do their due diligence and ask there own questions. If you are not buying you don't need to know in my opinion.

 

[sailorman]

Pete

I had noted that there was not incident report so not expecting anything from MAIB.

Thinking about residual value before buying such a high ticket item like this is useless as you will only be dissatisfied with the end result. Of course you can try to make your purchase more desirable for the secondhand market but then you are hoping there is going to be one at the time of selling. Then how many other yachts are being sold at that time..

I agree with JFM's MO however from my experience once a benchmark has been set it is very difficult to up sell no matter how many differentiators you might have. Things like the cost of fuel can have a massive effect on the residual value....

I still don't see the need for the witch hunt being carried out by people unlikely to be buying the product. Any potential buyer will do their due diligence and ask there own questions. If you are not buying you don't need to know in my opinion.

Many are just not "privately owned" but bought via a company set up for "charter", leave England VAT free ( £800,000 tax dodge ) then possibly only pay VAT upon selling at a much reduced value possibly saving £400,000, then the boat has been written down on the books saving even more £s. Who actually looses most, the owner or the UK Exchequer

 

[Tranona]

If you are not buying you don't need to know in my opinion.

Can't agree with that - although agree that people who are not in a position to buy may not be the best people to comment on such matters.

However, and particularly in this case there is a wider interest, not least because there have been keel failures in the types of boats others do own or could aspire to own - including Bavaria, two of which I have bought new (although different models from the ones with problems). More importantly the boat was supposed to be designed and built using the same standards as our more everyday boats - which will include the latest ISO on keel attachment structures and fastenings. Therefore one has to question whether those standards are adequate. Not only that, but Rob Humphreys designs "everyday" boats, as does Bruce Farr who designed the Beneteau that failed recently, as well as my new Bavaria, so one hopes that any lessons they learn from such incidents feeds into all their designs.

So, not knowing the cause of failure, or rather not having it determined by an independent source will inevitably lead to speculation. In this case perhaps because the builder in its earlier boats had a reputation for bullet proof design and construction whereas as newer designs have moved away from the old design principles. Hopefully this failure is a one off - and the Oyster statement that sister ships are sound suggests that they are not built the same way, or there have been repairs carried out to prevent future failure.

 

[Tranona]

Many are just not "privately owned" but bought via a company set up for "charter", leave England VAT free ( £800,000 tax dodge ) then possibly only pay VAT upon selling at a much reduced value possibly saving £400,000, then the boat has been written down on the books saving even more £s. Who actually looses most, the owner or the UK Exchequer

The UK exchequer loses nothing. If the boat is not sold for private use in the UK then it is not liable to VAT, or rather the VAT can be reclaimed. There is nothing illegal about that. It is not a "tax dodge" as the conditions of use for a yacht as a business asset are different from a private boat. VAT may be payable in the future if the boat is then sold to a private person VAT may be levied, or if it is imported to the EU.

BTW you may recall Flavio Briatore getting into deep poo with the Italian tax authorities over the way his non VAT paid boat was being used. So don't think that such activities escape the notice of the tax authorities.

 

[Lozzer]

I thought Oysters statement said that they have independent people looking at the issue. Whether they make those findings public is down to them, they have paid for the service so the information is theirs and they then choose who has access to that. I am sure that any serious prospect asking questions will be given the answers else they would walk away, I would.

I know how my bosses yacht is being built, we have our project manager who I communicate with on almost a daily basis. I have met the designer (RH) the sail makers and uncle Tom Colly. If they are involved in the build I will have looked at the whites of their eyes.

The designers will learn from this and share in their community not ours.

 

[johndove]

Just wouldn't expect a Keel fall off, or rather the bottom fall out on any yacht, but a Morden yacht, plus an Oyster! Unbelievable!

Wonder if the latest calculations are making boats to thin?

Been a few keel failures, as new boat get thinner, old boats get older, will this become a common topic on here?

 

[Tranona]

I thought Oysters statement said that they have independent people looking at the issue. Whether they make those findings public is down to them, they have paid for the service so the information is theirs and they then choose who has access to that. I am sure that any serious prospect asking questions will be given the answers else they would walk away, I would.

The designers will learn from this and share in their community not ours.

That is not "independent" but just somebody from outside being paid to give an opinion. You are right there is no obligation for them to publish findings.

It is important that lessons learned become public knowledge for the benefit of all buyers for the reasons I stated earlier.

 

[Lozzer]

Many are just not "privately owned" but bought via a company set up for "charter", leave England VAT free ( £800,000 tax dodge ) then possibly only pay VAT upon selling at a much reduced value possibly saving £400,000, then the boat has been written down on the books saving even more £s. Who actually looses most, the owner or the UK Exchequer

More PISH Sailorman. This loophole was closed years ago, you cant just go in and say I dont want to pay the VAT.....

 

[Rivers & creeks]

How to get HMRC to do a snap company visit: buy a company yacht or plane.

 

[sailorman]

More PISH Sailorman. This loophole was closed years ago, you cant just go in and say I dont want to pay the VAT.....

No but you can export to boat out of Europe & claim the VAT back & that is not PISH as you call it, just fact

 

[Lozzer]

That is not "independent" but just somebody from outside being paid to give an opinion. You are right there is no obligation for them to publish findings.

It is important that lessons learned become public knowledge for the benefit of all buyers for the reasons I stated earlier.

It will be public knowledge for those that need to know ie the buyers and not the gossip mungers that seem to hang around here.

 

[Lozzer]

No but you can export to boat out of Europe & claim the VAT back & that is not PISH as you call it, just fact

If you are a EU charter company buying a yacht you cannot just simply buy it and let the owners use it free gratis it doesn't work like that anymore. As someone said if you want a tax inspection buy a company yacht or plane.

If you are a genuine non-EU citizen or company then you can export the yacht, why should you pay the VAT if you are not required to?

 

[dunedin]

I am somewhat bemused by the amount of people on here taking cheap shots at Oyster. Must be a lot of disgruntled boat show people or ex employees.

Lozzer. I don't think anybody is taking cheap shots at Oyster (though perhaps some of your own recent posts are getting a bit emotive).

But on a site used by experienced yachtsmen, many owning boats and crossing seas / oceans in them, there is understandably a lot of concern about this almost inexplicable - and as yet still unexplained - structural failure. Many different yachts have construction issues and defects, some serious and expensive to fix - but very few (almost none?) have had such safety critical failures due to keel loss and sudden capsize.
As posted on the other thread, this is arguably the most devastating failure of the structure of a cruising yacht in recent history, with no clear cause revealed 3 months after the failure

In the absence of any information from the builders, the reports and pictures posted by others on the other thread raise a lot of questions - eg

I think there is a legitimate interest in this (thankfully) very unique episode

 

[Barbican]

I thought Oysters statement said that they have independent people looking at the issue. Whether they make those findings public is down to them, they have paid for the service so the information is theirs and they then choose who has access to that. I am sure that any serious prospect asking questions will be given the answers else they would walk away, I would.

I know how my bosses yacht is being built, we have our project manager who I communicate with on almost a daily basis. I have met the designer (RH) the sail makers and uncle Tom Colly. If they are involved in the build I will have looked at the whites of their eyes.

The designers will learn from this and share in their community not ours.

Following the build is great fun, and very useful for future reference when the boat is in your hands, so congrats on what must be a great experience. I would be interested to hear what you thought of the layup schedule and how the moulding shop was organised in terms of checking the adherence to the schedule. When my boat was built I looked at the various bits of hull removed for skin fittings etc, but didn't do any formal tests on them, did you go to those lengths, or like me rely on the experience of the moulding company? PS I have no idea who does the moulding for Oyster, but was the one bit I found difficult to asses