another idiot with mad ideas, new boat build

you mean all the laser/plasma/water/whatever/cut bits are going to be numbered and delivered to a yard in the UK where someone is going to weld it all together???

v.interesting!

V.
 
The whole kit. Yes.
Cutting time is being booked.
Steel is on order.
The yard in wales are currently getting there gear together.
We have a few issues to resolve first. The yard have talked Hans in to a more rounded helm and cabin window section, (details to follow) and we are going with the original hull shape.
A few minor adjustments from me... Like possibly a sliding door out on to the side decks, from the helm, and the files will be off to the cutters :)
Nervous is not something i normally am.... But i am :/
 
Decision decision

Off to Aberystwyth next week.
Aberleri boatyard is doing the gluing up of the steel work. They have produced there own range of kits in the past, and have worked with designers such as Bill Dixon, have produced tugs, fishing boats, pleasure boats amongst others. The main bit, is they are fully coded, know the regs, are damn nice people, and i get the right feel from them.

Looking in to hydraulics.
Yes, or no...
Would be a nice to have, but are they needed on a fifty footer.
Do they make life easier than just electric theusters, windlass etc.
Do they keep options open for later....
 
Robg71 said:
have produced tugs, fishing boats, pleasure boats amongst others.
Click to expand...
Rob, I know nothing of the yard you're talking about.
But some years ago I thought long and hard about a steel boat, and fwiw I would never consider anything built by a yard who doesn't have a solid history of commercial boat building.
That ain't a market where you can survive with marketing alone, as too many pleasure boat builders seem to think instead.
Good luck, I'm looking forward to yet another epic build thread.

PS: re hydraulics, I used to be a fan of all hydraulic setup (stabs, winches, windlass, passerelle, crane), but there are indeed pros and cons.
One alternative I would carefully consider is a 3-phase genset, even if they are typically used in much bigger vessels.
 
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Thanks for that Mapism.
Their commercial boats are rugged enough. By coincidence, heres one they built earlier, outside the sunseeker factory....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/townerassociates/7226472318/

7226472318


Im looking forward to getting the steel. But knowing my luck i will be at work.
Could i have more of our thoughts on the pros and cons of hydraulics and 3 phase.
I can if required get three phase via stacking three victron inverters. So its there as a possibility for smaller loads, if the gen set is not 3phase.
I am struggling with deciding on which route to go. Its a case of juggling power consumption, battery power, weight, expense and KISS...... Keep it simple... Stupid....
And also building in a future proof route for upgrading if necessary in future, ie stabs....
 
Robg71 said:
Thanks for that Mapism.
Their commercial boats are rugged enough. By coincidence, heres one they built earlier, outside the sunseeker factory....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/townerassociates/7226472318/

7226472318


Im looking forward to getting the steel. But knowing my luck i will be at work.
Could i have more of our thoughts on the pros and cons of hydraulics and 3 phase.
I can if required get three phase via stacking three victron inverters. So its there as a possibility for smaller loads, if the gen set is not 3phase.
I am struggling with deciding on which route to go. Its a case of juggling power consumption, battery power, weight, expense and KISS...... Keep it simple... Stupid....
And also building in a future proof route for upgrading if necessary in future, ie stabs....
Click to expand...

Hi Rob. Electrics used to be my field. You talk of stacking 3 inverters - have you checked this out with the manufacturers or just assumed you can?

Fascinating project.

Paul
 
Not at all. Straight from victron
Look at there range of inverters. I am looking at the quattros, and can run three together to triple power handling capacity, or can run them as a three phase output.... Depends on how they are configured....

Any wise pearls of wisdom most welcome Paul
 
Size to be confirmed.... Depends on lots of things to be decided.... Like if i use hydraulics, back battery power hyd pump... Air con.... Gen set size, compressor size etc etc....
24 volts though.
Theres a big step in price from the 5000 to the8000, better to buy two 5kw as similar price to 8 and gives redundancy and more power.
I am hoping a 5kw would be enough....
But, can of worms, if need three phase, that changes things again....
 
I sympathise, I have little knowledge of marine electrics - my experience was with domestic/commercial installations.

However, I can tell you 3 phase motors are generally more reliable than single phase and will have better starting characteristics. But having said that, I was following your air compressor thread and, although the 3 phase compressor looks the way go, it seems a bit of over-kill to install a 3 phase generator and/or 3 inverters to power just one item.

So I guess you have to decide which way you want to go with windlass etc. Hydraulics or electric.

Best of luck.

Paul
 
Robg71 said:
Thanks for that Mapism.
Their commercial boats are rugged enough. By coincidence, heres one they built earlier, outside the sunseeker factory....
7226472318_b00b83b4c4_z.jpg

...
Could i have more of our thoughts on the pros and cons of hydraulics and 3 phase.
Click to expand...
Wow Rob, that Herbert Ballam thing definitely looks the biz! Btw, I re-linked it as pic just for immediate viewing.
Those folks will surely be capable to build you a proper vessel, methink.

Your question above is not an easy one, otoh.
The main reason why I used to be a fan of fully hydraulic setups was that when I was thinking to change my boat, good fin stab were one of the "musts" in my features list. And that necessarily meant a serious hydraulic system, with PTOs, some sort of redundancy, etc.
Therefore, my train of thought was that once you've got such solid system, you can as well integrate it for driving other stuff - also because normally it's not necessary to use frinstance the thruster together with the anchor winch or the stabs.
And of course, the big power and the capability to withstand continuos usage is a plus, particularly for equipments like the thruster(s).
Otoh, nowadays there are electric fin stabs which seems to be as good as the hydraulic ones, if not better (BartW will tell us more, as time goes on).
Therefore, there is a real possibility to get rid of hydraulics altogether, and that has a great appeal in KIS terms.
In fact, hydraulic systems require big(ish) hoses carrying hot oil anywhere onboard, pumps, a compensation tank whose pressure makes it more akin to an onboard bomb than anything else (though in your specific case, you might laugh at that... :)), a mix of PTOs and electric pumps, VFD, complex control systems, etc.
Otoh, you obviously need the current anyway (actually, even more of it, when you must drive the hydraulic systems with the mains not running).
So, following a train of thought similar to the one I previously mentioned, why not use it for everything?
On top of all that, 3 phase marine gensets used to be huge bulky things meant for very big boats, but nowadays there are some which are well within the feasibility of using them in a 50 footer. IIRC, the smaller 3ph Onan is a 13.5 kW (or is it the 17.5? Not that it makes a huge difference, anyway).
And obviously, 3ph is the best way to go for electric motors. In fact, for some of them (electric stabs, hydraulic pump) it's actually necessary to go through a VFD if you don't have native 3ph current. Which is not a big deal nowadays, but it's still it's a bit of equipment which a 3ph genset makes totally unnecessary.
Incidentally, also for the onboard compressor which as I understand you are thinking to install, a 3ph motor is obviously better.

Choices, choices...
Coming to think of all that, I don't regret the choice I eventually made, i.e. stick to the much simpler boat I already had, and just spend more time enjoying her... :cool:
 
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Mmm, thats helped :)
Now you see my dilemma...
I actually am thinking of along the lines of sticking to 24volts, for a couple of reasons, but leaving space for a hydraulic pack if and when i need one.
I am getting one priced up as we speak, but the power requirement he gave me to run from 24volts were fairly hefty.
He said 10hp, at 175bar 25l/pm, 68N/m, and run at 1000 to 1200 rpm. Thats a fair size power supply from batteries just to drive the hydraulic pump. (Albeit as a get out of jail card) would fit pto to main engine.

What i really need to do, when we get further on with the build, is work out exactly how much current is being used onboard, and size everything to suit.
The dc generator idea is off the list, on the grounds of its the least flexible, and the battery banks have to be sized on account of generator output. So could theoretically need a huge battery bank just to swallow the output from gen set.

The single phase ac gen, when combined with the victron inverters, will fully load the generator, by using surplus power and charging batteries with it. So generator is not needlessly running for a low load capacity. It also gives room for manoeuvre as i can add to the inverters

Wheres the head scratch smiley.....
:confused:

I will wait to speak to Don and Richard at the boat yard and discuss....
 
Robg71 said:
The yard have talked Hans in to a more rounded helm and cabin window section, (details to follow) and we are going with the original hull shape.
A few minor adjustments from me... Like possibly a sliding door out on to the side decks, from the helm, and the files will be off to the cutters :)
Nervous is not something i normally am.... But i am :/
Click to expand...

I hope you not letting the yard have too much say on the wheelhouse design having seen their greenhouse effort on the tug LOL........
 
I don't know the price difference between a technically ready to sail boat and the price of assembly by the boatyard in Wales but the ease of mind to have it technically ready (and inspected) would be worth some money to me.
 
Off to Wales today to the boatyard for a good nosey about.
by coincidence with the boat design etc being dutch, so is Don at the boatyard. but he has lived in wales for 40 years. Holland next week for a look at a couple of boats too.

On the engine front, the pair that I had my eye on, may are being ripped to bits, so i am keeping my options open.
There are a pair of volvo D9 at 575 for sale, no other details at the mo except the price.
Knowing who is selling them they will be top dollar, but any thoughts on the D9 anyway are welcome.
much bigger than i anticipated, but just looking really.
dont need them yet, and need another trip to work to pay for the buggers.
 
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