Another Chinese copy for sale...

As others have said, two-strokes are perfectly legal, even new, provided they meet emissions regulations. However, to achieve this, the manufacturers have had to develop direct fuel injection (DFI) systems and pressurise the air going in, etc., but with all the extra gear required, it is generally only practicable on the larger engines, and consequently there is not so much a weight differential between 2- and 4-strokes in this range any more, neither is there any difference in fuel consumption between them.

Unfortunately, the weight penalty of the DFI means that it is not practicable on smaller engines, hence almost all new engines in this range being 4-stroke now. However, second-hand 2-stroke engines are still perfectly legal, regardless of emission levels. The advice given by our local marine engineer was to keep our tender's Tohatsu 3.5 two-stroke going as long as possible if we don't want to lug a heavy 4-stroke around.
 
prv said:
To buy, or just to sell?

For what it's worth, if and when I need to replace my little Suzuki, I think I will be visiting Mr Mainbrayce on Alderney with his full range of Tohatsu 2-strokes.

Pete
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I've been thinking the same, but it appears that Tohatsu now want a buyer's home address in the CI before they'll supply to CI.

Maybe I'll buy in a new leg and engine head and put my old cover on when the time comes. (Less likely to get knicked than a new engine too)
 
FishyInverness said:
Or if you really want to play the game.....find out what constitutes "Commercial" and what proof you need to purchase a 2-stroke as a "commercial end user"...just a thought...:cool:
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Well, I do keep a rod on board. Actually caught something last year, so I'm clearly a fisherman.

For sale: three slightly used vintage mackerel

Now I'm a commercial fisherman.
 
Stemar said:
Well, I do keep a rod on board. Actually caught something last year, so I'm clearly a fisherman.

For sale: three slightly used vintage mackerel

Now I'm a commercial fisherman.
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Or a rescue boat for a club. The club is just happens to be one member - you - and you would use the boat to rescue someone if you saw they needed help...
 
Interestingly, as I started this thread, I had a PM from a Chinese gentlemen saying: "a Chinese Hyfong outboard engine, not very good". He gave me a link to another Chinese brand called "Seahorse". Just how many of these brands are there?? Maybe as the oil to petrol ratio is quite high, another brand should "ho-oily-seagull". Might get a die hard villiers fan buying one.
 
bikerbill said:
That's why the powers that be banned moto gp for 2 strokes
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On the contrary, stinkwheels were phased out because they were irrelevant to manufacturers and markets alike. I speak as a stinkwheel fan (although for some reason getting my Mercury 3.3 on the pipe is never quite so satisfying as a TZ350).

While we're on, let's nail the '2-strokes are banned' myth, as some have tried to do above. They are not. The European regulation for recreational use limits allowed exhaust emissions (and noise) of oxides of nitrogen, hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide (the latter does not figure in American EPA regs ). This applies whether an outboard is 2-stroke, 4-stroke, or plutonium-powered.

The principal means for cleaning 2-stroke exhausts relies on direct injection: the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder after the exhaust port has closed, reducing hydrocarbon emission (essentially unburned petrol) at a stroke. In a conventional piston-ported two-stroke, there is nothing physical to prevent unburned fuel vanishing down the exhaust in this way. When running at peak torque rpm a two-stroke is comparatively clean. When '4-stroking', on the other hand, it's very dirty: pretty much all the fuel in alternate power strokes vanishes unburned down the pipe. In both cases, of course, you can add lubricating oil , burned or not, to the pollutants.

Various engine management strategies such as E-TEC give further cleaning. This technology isn't cheap, making it unrealistic to fit to smaller, cheaper engines: thus the sale of new small 2-strokes is banned in effect, but not per se.

For the record the relative emissions for various 2-stroke engines run something like this:
1. Pre-mix 2-stroke with carb: 50 units;
2. Metered oil 2-stroke with carb: 40 units;
3. DI 2-stroke: 9 units;
3. DI + assorted other measures: as few as 3 units.
These are American figures and so do not include CO emissions.

A graph on page three of this document: http://members.iinet.net.au/~pauldawson/IAME-57_Emissions-a-sml.pdf
shows the actual limits imposed by European, EPA and CARB standards.
 
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It appears that It's only outboards that are affected by this legislation. I could go out today and buy a 2 stroke chain saw. Is there any logic in this?
 
NormanS said:
It appears that It's only outboards that are affected by this legislation. I could go out today and buy a 2 stroke chain saw. Is there any logic in this?
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Of course it's entirely logical.

Imagine that you have your dirty chain saw all fired up and ready to topple the magnificent 600 year-old oak tree before you, from which you plan to whittle a couple of dowels. True, the fumes could kill it, but unless it's a pretty pathetic chain saw, the oak will die from your actions far more quickly. In fact you'd just be taking it out of its misery, you old tree-hugger, you.

Now an outboard, on the other hand, can cause untold and interminable suffering, mainly to posters on here who can't start the damn things.
 
"Another Chinese Copy"-well as I remarked eleswhere perhaps not.
Problem is in a world where most of these things are made in China its quite possible to buy all the constituent parts from different chinese manufacturers and put something together which might be as good as the original or with corners cut totally horrendous.
This is certainly true of Anchor Winches and RC model helicopters.
I also have a well used two stroke 600 watt generator Chinese of course which just goes on and on-its run my fridge freezer ;fridge: lighting and central heating electric for days at a time as well as being used for a selection of power tools.
 
macd said:
For the record the relative emissions for various 2-stroke engines run something like this:
1. Pre-mix 2-stroke with carb: 50 units;
2. Metered oil 2-stroke with carb: 40 units;
3. DI 2-stroke: 9 units;
3. DI + assorted other measures: as few as 3 units.
These are American figures and so do not include CO emissions.

A graph on page three of this document: http://members.iinet.net.au/~pauldawson/IAME-57_Emissions-a-sml.pdf
shows the actual limits imposed by European, EPA and CARB standards.
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That's a really interesting post - I had no idea of the extent of unburnt fuel going out of a two stroke!

So really the pollution is not so much from burning oil, as from just splitting out fuel vapour?

My Selva 2.5hp (horrid engine btw as I have said on other posts) - is 4 cycle but injects oil and fuel into the powerhead. So I guess it must past EU emissions EPA regs (as it sells now as a new engine), because it burns up all the oil and fuel? But does that mean that it is starving the bearings and valve gear of oil, which is likely to mean a shorter life expectancy? Certainly cannot be as effective as an oil splash system from a sump as in a conventional one?

For all you mechanics out there - another question for curious me ( non-boaty one). Air cooled four stroke car engines disappeared because they couldn't meet the emissions regs - e.g. VW Brazil stopped air cooled T2 in 2006 (just about to stop VW Camper all together in December). Why would an air cooled engine have worst stats on pollution than a water cooled one?
 
dartmoor said:
For all you mechanics out there - another question for curious me ( non-boaty one). Air cooled four stroke car engines disappeared because they couldn't meet the emissions regs - e.g. VW Brazil stopped air cooled T2 in 2006 (just about to stop VW Camper all together in December). Why would an air cooled engine have worst stats on pollution than a water cooled one?
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From what I heard (father owned a Garage in the 80's and 90's) it was nothing to do with emissions. Air cooled Porsche's of the time flew through emissions tests. The actual problem was European noise regulations.
 
blackknight said:
From what I heard (father owned a Garage in the 80's and 90's) it was nothing to do with emissions. Air cooled Porsche's of the time flew through emissions tests. The actual problem was European noise regulations.
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+1. Same with motorcycles: difficult to get an air-cooled example with much power through noise tests, although it was the case that models already homologated before revision of the regs did not have to meet new ones. In fact the noisiest bit of a modern car is its tyres; with most bikes it's the chain final drive (or the hi-fi if it's a Gold Wing).

dartmoor said:
Why would an air cooled engine have worst stats on pollution than a water cooled one?
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I can't think of any overwhelming reasons why this should be so, but there is one factor that could be applicable, particularly with the more primitive air-cooled engines. In a liquid-cooled engine, it's relatively easy to get the coolant to where it's most needed; less so in an air-cooled one (although sophisticated oil management can help...not that VWs are notably sophisticated). One of the many variables influencing the composition of exhaust gases (pre-scrubbing) is combustion temperature. This is fairly predictable/controllable in a well-designed, ECU-managed, liquid-cooled engine packed with sensors, much less so in an old air-cooled one. The basic truth might be that the VW engines you mention could have been made clean enough, but not at a cost that made sense; or perhaps the HP penalty would have been too high, or both. (I don't know if you remember the first Cat-equipped engines, but they were truly gutless.) Of course the air-cooled Porsches mentioned by Blacknight would have lived in a completely different cost-benefit world from a VW camper.
 
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I noticed multiple sellers on E-bay, all Portsmouth based. Does this mean one actual supplier with multiple identities that change rapidly leaving no after sales support? As others have said, I would not touch one as quality is unknown and there may be no support or even recourse if you get a bad one.
 
I cant understand where folks are getting this idea that all small 4 stroke outboatds are heavy and expensive to service, Honda 2.3hp 12 kgs, 1 spark plug ,250ml engine oil 60 ml gearbox oil and grease. If you service it yourself its going to cost you well under a tenner.
 
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