Another cheap Westerly Centaur??

Seajet said:
I'm still amused by some people's idea that if a boat is bigger it has to be better !

I fell into that trap - with a relatively good 30' sailing boat I intended to live aboard part time - years ago, then realised I want to go sailing for my hobby, and the larger the boat the more hassle & less response - so I backtracked and have always been glad of it, which does not mean to say my 22' boat is in 1970's trim.

The problem with the Centaur having the original engine is that unlike grp hulls these things do have a finite life, and it's not just the expense but a major pain changing engines; a friend recently bought a very good late Centaur with a brand new 3 cylinder Nannidiesel for not an awful lot more relatively, and compared to my Dad's Centaur - a great example in the late 1980's - it's turbine smooth !

Of course this doesn't just apply to Centaurs, it's just that there are a lot of them, could equally apply to any boat with an inboard over 20 years old, less for saildrives with the pain of the gaiter etc.
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There's a lot in what you say seajet but I'm actually enjoying the work doing my one up & there is a lot to be said for the increased inside space.The difference between living in a small bedsitter & a broom cupboard! :D.It also has cracking side decks & feels much more like a small ship in a practical down to earth way.Maybe I'll down size when my joints become a bit creakier & my health becomes an issue.:(
 
Seajet said:
I'm still amused by some people's idea that if a boat is bigger it has to be better !

QUOTE]

Who said anything about bigger being better??
Can't see that mentioned on any of the threads here?
I think the fact is that as the Centaur is bilge keel, it is still very much in demand. There are very few bilge keelers built since the 90's (that are affordable to the normal, run of the mill, working, average income person) so the market for good condition pre owned ones is still strong. Even if the engine IS old, if it still runs OK and the new owner gets a couple of years use out of it before it expires or needs a rebuild, then surely that's good value for money? IF after those 2 years the engine has died and the new owner doesn't want to replace it or rebuild it, they can stick it on Ebay or Gumtree and recover some of the money they spent on it. There is ALWAYS someone who will take on a project and have ideas on how to overcome the expense of a replacement motor, be it a secondhand one or a rebuild.
Personally I'd be more than happy to take that Centaur on, but its too far away from me and I've got my sights set on a Griffon!! If anyone comes across a Griffon, sub £10K, get in touch with me!!
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Mickywillis - hope you get your cheap Griffon. You may be lucky, but may also have to wait a while. Doubt you want a project (always costs more than a sorted boat) so will probably have to travel, repeatedly.

Or you could buy a good boat locally for a reasonable price and go sailing.

Everyone has their priorities
 
Lakesailor said:
Not really what I, or Tranona who made the same point, meant.
People buying and using boats at the bottom end of the market are generally doing it because that is how far their budget stretches.
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I agree. However, I think there are also a lot of people out there who have cheap boats because of the relatively high running costs. If you're in for three grand a year to your friendly local marina for parking, there may be less money around to upgrade from a Centaur to a Europlastiboxx 36. Perhaps we're saying the same thing: folk on limited budgets will balance capital and running costs for something they're happy with.

Where I think the Sunk Costs Fallacy really comes in is with arguments like "It's not worth spending five grand putting a new engine into a Centaur". The value of the boat before you do the work is not really the decider here, unless you are planning to sell almost at once.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I agree. However, I think there are also a lot of people out there who have cheap boats because of the relatively high running costs. If you're in for three grand a year to your friendly local marina for parking, there may be less money around to upgrade from a Centaur to a Europlastiboxx 36. Perhaps we're saying the same thing: folk on limited budgets will balance capital and running costs for something they're happy with.

Where I think the Sunk Costs Fallacy really comes in is with arguments like "It's not worth spending five grand putting a new engine into a Centaur". The value of the boat before you do the work is not really the decider here, unless you are planning to sell almost at once.
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Human behaviour is much more subtle than that. Although the straightforward economic model does help where there are viable alternatives to the current course of action - that is I will change my X for Y because I shall be better off financially. Think diesel instead of petrol car. However in complex decisions such as leisure activities the question may be what are the alternatives. Therefore when the engine goes in your old low market value boat the alternative may be to scrap it and buy another boat which in turn will probably need similar decisions in the future. So it may make more sense (to you, anyway) to spend the money on what you have even though the market does not value that expenditure in the same way. This is particularly the case if you have a long term view and the result (newly re-engined boat) suits your long term aspirations. However if that is not the case - that is you want a different style, size or whatever boat in the future, perhaps the decision is to cut your losses, sell the broken boat for what you can get and start with a different base.

None of these courses of action is completely rational as the whole activity is, for most people anyway, not rational!
 
However, just because someone manages to get a boat for a low price, it doesn't necessarily mean they are broke and can't afford new bits or running costs, they may just be lucky or astute !
 
JumbleDuck said:
Ain't dat de troof?
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Yup! That's why you can make a case for all sorts of different courses of action and be equally right - or wrong! and why I am just putting the finishing touches to a new teak deck on a boat that has a market value of little more than zero (and also has a new Nanni engine) - because to me the replacement cost, that is getting something as good or better is far greater than the money I am spending on it. The economic argument assumes alternatives are perfect substitutes which is rarely the case.
 
Seajet said:
Around my way it seems to be the opposite; marinas and deep water moorings which used to have waiting lists now have plenty of spaces as people vote with their wallets, while my club with sheltered half tide moorings is as full as ever.

I'd agree dinghy sailing fell off though, which is a bit mystifying considering the lower costs - I think the grot summers up until this last one were a lot to do with it.
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£7000 + extras, for a new Lymington Scow, is hardly lower cost, considering its only a 11' 4" dinghy.
Other 'dinghies are even higher.
 
Meanwhile back on Earth, DanCrane of these forums and a chum have both managed to buy old Ospreys for a couple of hundred quid, and one can get better condition more modern examples for a bit more.

15 years ago I used to crew an International 14 whose hull alone was £10,500 then, but dinghy sailing doesn't have to be all dayglo and latest tweaks !
 
alant said:
£7000 + extras, for a new Lymington Scow, is hardly lower cost, considering its only a 11' 4" dinghy.
Other 'dinghies are even higher.
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But that's not a valid comparison, my 60 year old GP 14 at around 400 squid with combi trailer is probably a closer comparison to a Centaur. You'd need to compare your Scow to summat like a new BenJenBav or similar.
 
Searush said:
But that's not a valid comparison, my 60 year old GP 14 at around 400 squid with combi trailer is probably a closer comparison to a Centaur. You'd need to compare your Scow to summat like a new BenJenBav or similar.
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Well, an very 'old' scow + trailer, is about £2-3000, so cannot be compared with an old Centaur.

With scows similar to this one, quite commonplace in regard to price -
"Lymington River Scow: 336
+ Excellent condition - hardly sailed in the last few years
+ Buoyancy Certificate
£5,800"
 
alant said:
Well, an very 'old' scow + trailer, is about £2-3000, so cannot be compared with an old Centaur.

With scows similar to this one, quite commonplace in regard to price -
"Lymington River Scow: 336
+ Excellent condition - hardly sailed in the last few years
+ Buoyancy Certificate
£5,800"
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scows are sailed by toffs which helps to keep prices crazily high

take a look at Boats and outboards for the real value of small dinghies
 
I don't think some of the posters on this forum have the slightest idea where "the bottom end" of the sailing market really is! I know lots of people who are sailing regularly with an annual outlay of maybe £300. Maybe it's a tight-fisted, muddy wellied, northerner thing :rolleyes:
 
No it's not a Northener thing, my first dinghy - a gunter Caricraft 10 - was bought with my 10 yr old working class pocket money, and the following Scorpion, Dart 18 & Osprey were all around the £500 mark for very good boats - but with sails which had seen better days !

Frankly unless a rabid racer one can get a lovely, craftsman built dinghy for not much money.
 
All this talk about money what about the sheer joy, frustration, cold, damp and bacon sizzling for breakfast on a quite mooring, that you get whether its a 1K boat or 15K. Its sailing, and one has to do what one has to do to keep doing it.

I have rebuilt my VP in my Centaur rather than buying a new engine along with all the additional hardware and grief and alterations that goes with it. Yes the cost was horrible, relatively, a surprise £1k in a year when I was looking to spend the money on something else, but still better than 7K for a new engine and installation, which SWMBO would not let me spend anyway.

If I was in the market for a less than 10K boat (and knew what I now know about engines) then I would definitely look at the one on offer and take a gamble (was going to say a punt but that would get Dylan started) that it is fixable and spend teh balance on rigging, sails etc etc which is more likely to need.

Now I have nearly convinced myself to be a 2 Centaur man hmmmmmmm.
 
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