Another Broken Lagoon

[BurnitBlue]

Since you think that all catamarans have severe design limitations and a narrow window of usage, would you care to elaborate?
It would be interesting to take your view on how a 26t Lagoon 52 compares to a full Carbon Gunboat or maybe a Balance cat. Especially since all three are radically different. Lumping all catamarans together is like saying An Imoca 60 is just like a Hurley 22

All boats have design limitations as just about everything else. However, I sincerely believe that a catamaran has a narrower safe window than a monohull. A monohull is far more forgiving at sea. It is pointless to discuss individual boats that I have never even heard of. From the short list you gave I can only say that I would cross the Atlantic in a Hurley 22 in a heartbeat. Not so sure about the other stuff without a close inspection.

You seem to have taken my personal dislike of trampolines to an extreme accusation that I lump all catamarans together. Yes but in only general terms I do because I owned one for five years and crossed to the Caribbean and Bahamas twice and I am still alive. But there are individual examples that may put the crew'safety above comfort. I don't know of one except those that load the boat with various epirbs, liferafts, satelite devices, flotation suits, upside down escape hatches. Etc. They could all be needed and good stuff too. But my voyage on a Hurley 22 would actually make me feel safer with just a whistle and mirror.

 

[geem]

All boats have design limitations as just about everything else. However, I sincerely believe that a catamaran has a narrower safe window than a monohull. A monohull is far more forgiving at sea. It is pointless to discuss individual boats that I have never even heard of. From the short list you gave I can only say that I would cross the Atlantic in a Hurley 22 in a heartbeat.

You seem to have taken my personal dislike of trampolines to an extreme accusation that I lump all catamarans together.

You lumped them all together. I am trying to explain to you that that isn't how it works. My point is that if you build a complex structure like a catamaran they need good design and engineering and the correct materials. Lagoon or Leopard don't seem to tick any of these boxes.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Geem. You asked a good question regarding my take on the extreme examples and exotic materials in your mini-list, but I am sorry i know nothing about them. On reflextion, I do lump all catamarans that I know about in one unsafe package. I am not a marine achitect or yachting journalist so I operate on general terms. Life is easier that way. And what is the harm, they are only my personal opinions. I try really hard not to influence anyone but it could happen by the very nature of discussion.

Edit, our posts crossed. I have admitted that I do lump them all together in a general way. If you know of a design that makes a catamaran as safe as a monohull I would love to hear from you about it. Hold no bars, add as much exotic material and advanced sailing techniques as you wish. Keep the cost down, and remember it needs to be insured by odinary folk.

 

[geem]

Geem. You asked a good question regarding my take on the extreme examples and exotic materials in your mini-list, but I am sorry i know nothing about them. On reflextion, I do lump all catamarans that I know about in one unsafe package. I am not a marine achitect or yachting journalist so I operate on general terms. Life is easier that way. And what is the harm, they are only my personal opinions. I try really hard not to influence anyone but it could happen by the very nature of discussion.

Edit, our posts crossed. I have admitted that I do lump them all together in a general way. If you know of a design that makes a catamaran as safe as a monohull I would love to hear from you about it. Hold no bars, add as much exotic material and advanced sailing techniques as you wish. Keep the cost down, and remember it needs to be insured by odinary folk.

Can I name the monohull? Lots of monohulls I wouldn't choose to cross an ocean in but I can think of a few cats I would love to do it in.
I have already done it in a Prout Snowgoose. I wouldnt choose to do that again.
As for keeping the cost down, that won't happen. A well designed cat is an expensive machine. They cost way more to build than a similar sized monohull. Every aspect of cat ownership is higher.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

As for keeping the cost down, that won't happen. A well designed cat is an expensive machine. They cost way more to build than a similar sized monohull. Every aspect of cat ownership is higher.

What about a Wharram?

 

[BurnitBlue]

We are at opposite ends of this discussion. I can name many monohull types that i would not hesitate to cross an ocean. From the Nicholson 32 to the modern Rustlers and many unsung masters of the Ocean in between they all tick the boxes. Consider the build numbers of these types. The International folkboat were built in their thousands, ditto the Westerly and Moody marks. Compare the very few catamarans that you would choose and their build numbers. You are smart lad so you can join the dots.

On sheer numbers that represent saiors past choice of yacht, the monohull wins hands down.

So now let us consider price. I can buy a top quality Halberg Rassy 31 footer for 25,000 pounds in Sweden. Or an Ocean ready Folkboat for 5,000 pounds. Used of course. You have already discounted a repeat transat in a medium priced Snowgoose so how much would your ideal Catamaran cost. I also realise that being smart you are playing Devils Advocate. So am I really.

Long way to go before the victor can be announced. So may I suggest that the monohull is in the lead big time at the moment.

 

[BurnitBlue]

What about a Wharram?

I remember helping a buddy to thread some cables or something on his large Wharram. Next to us on the hard was a really neat monohull. Just then a man and his young son passed by. "What's that boat called, daddy?" Pointing at the neat monohull. "That's a cruising yacht " said his dad. "So what's that thing beside it" asked his son pointing at the Wharram. "That's the plywood packing case it came in".

 

[Supertramp]

I don't think it's one hull better than two. The real debate is about the nature and quality of design briefs and then the builders ability to deliver. Shortcuts at any stage will surface eventually.

Most people look for a match with a design brief and the age, size and quality they can afford. A catamaran could fit that well for some, but whatever you choose if your use is within the design brief and it falls apart structurally you have been let down.

Personally I trust more in the overengineering of older heavier boats and I settle for replacing the consumable bits that don't last 30 or 40 years. If I was embarking on a Southern Ocean crossing my choices would be massively different.

 

[dunedin]

We are at opposite ends of this discussion. I can name many monohull types that i would not hesitate to cross an ocean. From the Nicholson 32 to the modern Rustlers and many unsung masters of the Ocean in between they all tick the boxes. Consider the build numbers of these types. The International folkboat were built in their thousands, ditto the Westerly and Moody marks. Compare the very few catamarans that you would choose and their build numbers. You are smart lad so you can join the dots.

On sheer numbers that represent saiors past choice of yacht, the monohull wins hands down.

So now let us consider price. I can buy a top quality Halberg Rassy 31 footer for 25,000 pounds in Sweden. Or an Ocean ready Folkboat for 5,000 pounds. Used of course. You have already discounted a repeat transat in a medium priced Snowgoose so how much would your ideal Catamaran cost. I also realise that being smart you are playing Devils Advocate. So am I really.

Long way to go before the victor can be announced. So may I suggest that the monohull is in the lead big time at the moment.

I suggest you go and research the build numbers for Lagoon Catamarans. I suspect they vastly exceed those of the example boats you quote - Nich 32, Westerly, Moody.
And vast numbers of Lagoons have successfully and safely crossed the Atlantic. I haven’t checked the precise numbers recently, but think they were the largest number by manufacturer / brand in the 300 or so boats on the ARC some years. Certainly so many that we saw (actually passed ) a couple mid Atlantic, and you don’t see many boats other than within 100 miles of the departure and arrival ports.
And re the OP, it would be interesting to compare the percentage of faults per 1,000 boats between Lagoon and other manufacturers (including the expensive Scandinavian ones).

 

[geem]

I suggest you go and research the build numbers for Lagoon Catamarans. I suspect they vastly exceed those of the example boats you quote - Nich 32, Westerly, Moody.
And vast numbers of Lagoons have successfully and safely crossed the Atlantic. I haven’t checked the precise numbers recently, but think they were the largest number by manufacturer / brand in the 300 or so boats on the ARC some years. Certainly so many that we saw (actually passed ) a couple mid Atlantic, and you don’t see many boats other than within 100 miles of the departure and arrival ports.
And re the OP, it would be interesting to compare the percentage of faults per 1,000 boats between Lagoon and other manufacturers (including the expensive Scandinavian ones).

It is without doubt that Lagoons are popular. I know several owners. There are lots of them bought to do ocean sailing and RTW. Friends have Lagoon 44. I commented on how good the condition was seeing as he had sailed it around the world. I asked if he had to replace much. He said He had replaced pretty much everything. He likes the boat but then went in to list all the problems he had had.
Another guy we met in Portugal with a new one was sat in a marina having taken legal action again Lagoon due to the number of faults. Couldn't continue his trans Atlantic.
Another couple had a Lagoon 52 doing world ARC. They had so many faults that they went legal with Lagoon in the Canaries and cancelled their trip. These are just people we have met.
If you think these are well built, think again. Evidence suggests not.

 

[goeasy123]

OP here. Some interesting comments. Here's my take.

Part of the problem lies in CE classification. The toughest class A says.... 'A Class A yacht ( boat ) is a vessel that is built to navigate the open ocean and surpass a force 8 on the Beaufort scale and surpass waves higher that 4 meters. These yachts are constructed to be self sufficient in hostile seas.'

Lagoon (and other cat) manufactures build their products to this standard, but the standard says nothing about lifecycle. Over time a cat is inherently less likely to survive compared to a monohull.... on an as like for like basis as you as you can imagine.

If you want to travel faster, have a different sailing and living experience then buy a multihull, but be aware that it's lifecycle is compromised. Looking and Ruby Roses YT channel you can see the quality of design and construction in a Seawind. It's superior to Lagoon's, but it's design is still compromised vs a similar size/cost monohull.

On Lagoon's website they say that they have sought the advice of a leading expert company in finite element analysis who have said that a compromised 450 is not dangerous. This is an illogical statement as FEA is done on a known structural design. This smacks of 'hand waving'.

I suggest there have been too many reports of customers having difficulty dealing with Lagoon, including legal action for a wiser person to want to do business with them.

The number of reported similar failures of 450's is statistically significant implying a high probability of future failure. Therefore one might not want to take the risk.

 

[geem]

OP here. Some interesting comments. Here's my take.

Part of the problem lies in CE classification. The toughest class A says.... 'A Class A yacht ( boat ) is a vessel that is built to navigate the open ocean and surpass a force 8 on the Beaufort scale and surpass waves higher that 4 meters. These yachts are constructed to be self sufficient in hostile seas.'

Lagoon (and other cat) manufactures build their products to this standard, but the standard says nothing about lifecycle. Over time a cat is inherently less likely to survive compared to a monohull.... on an as like for like basis as you as you can imagine.

If you want to travel faster, have a different sailing and living experience then buy a multihull, but be aware that it's lifecycle is compromised. Looking and Ruby Roses YT channel you can see the quality of design and construction in a Seawind. It's superior to Lagoon's, but it's design is still compromised vs a similar size/cost monohull.

On Lagoon's website they say that they have sought the advice of a leading expert company in finite element analysis who have said that a compromised 450 is not dangerous. This is an illogical statement as FEA is done on a known structural design. This smacks of 'hand waving'.

I suggest there have been too many reports of customers having difficulty dealing with Lagoon, including legal action for a wiser person to want to do business with them.

The number of reported similar failures of 450's is statistically significant implying a high probability of future failure. Therefore one might not want to take the risk.

With regard to the going fast bit. Speaking as an ex catamaran owner, downwind there is nothing like a cat for comfort and speed. Sailing with the wind forward of the beam in the likes of Lagoons and Leopards just don't cut it. We sailed in company with a Lagoon 45 with Carbon mast and fancy black sails. Our old 44ft monohull left him behind and we could easily outpoint him and go faster but we had the wind forward of the beam and it was blowing hard. Cats win hands down off the wind and the good ones with light construction, low windage and carbon daggerboards may well blow a monohull away upwind. This is not possible in a Lagoon.
High performance cats have narrow hulls, low wetted area and they are light. Lagoons are not like this.

 

[goeasy123]

Have I noticed an increase in the number of Lagoon 450's on YW? Are folks trying to get rid of them. Are they there because of fewer buyers. I just can't imagine why, on the balance of probability, anyone would want to buy one.

 

[Neeves]

With regard to the going fast bit. Speaking as an ex catamaran owner, downwind there is nothing like a cat for comfort and speed. Sailing with the wind forward of the beam in the likes of Lagoons and Leopards just don't cut it. We sailed in company with a Lagoon 45 with Carbon mast and fancy black sails. Our old 44ft monohull left him behind and we could easily outpoint him and go faster but we had the wind forward of the beam and it was blowing hard. Cats win hands down off the wind and the good ones with light construction, low windage and carbon daggerboards may well blow a monohull away upwind. This is not possible in a Lagoon.
High performance cats have narrow hulls, low wetted area and they are light. Lagoons are not like this.

As an owner of a Lightwave, catamaran, I'd have to agree with Geem - maybe with some qualifications.

If you buy a catamaran because you want 'living space' then it will not have narrow hulls and will not be built to be as light as possible. It will have been designed and built to suit people living on board. Consider what is the customer base that supports the sales of Leopard - its not the individual owner - but a charter fleet (and one specific customer). How many newly launched charter yachts cross oceans - why would you build a yacht for a charter fleet to the specification of a yacht to cross an ocean? Why buy a yacht to cross an ocean if it has been built for charter in the Med or Carib. If you are buying a yacht of a certain size, big, new and privately - why would you not demand customisation - not available from Leopard. Don't knock a yacht for being inadequate to cross an ocean when, though it may pass certification, it was not actually designed for that role - blame the certification not the yacht builder.

If we receive a windward forecast - we don't sail - we stay at anchor. Sailing to windward is not the strong point of a cat and sailing into 4m seas with a 1.5 metre chop is not much fun. Off the wind we can knock spots off a monohull - and drink coffee at breakfast from porcelain cups and a tall stainless steel coffee pot - without thinking about it. We can make a casserole in the galley and watch the world going by at 10 knots with only one person on deck - as long as its off the wind. What size of monohull do you need to sail at an average of 10 knots over 100nm with one person on deck? With the wind behind the beam, but not too far aft, we can do it in a 38' cat (or if you insist - a 38' floating caravan - 2 queens, one double, 2 hot showers a day, meals with china and glass for the wine).

You are comparing multihulls that have a limited market and the largest sector of the market is the charter industry. Sensibly some builders focus on that industry - but if you insist - will sell you a yacht (cat). The monohull industry has a greatly different basis with a much larger proportion of private buyers (though customisation is still limited). There are catamaran builder focussed at the private sector but they don't sell the volumes that Lagoon produce, and are seldom seen (because the charter feels want volume).

The other factor to consider - how many people sail oceans and of those how many actually need the living space of a cat. If the answer is not many - to both of these questions - again - why would you build a cat to the rigours of ocean crossings when the market is so small..

I'd tend to point the finger at the buyers - what were they expecting, and the bureaucracy that generated the certification requirement (as it is very obviously - weak).

Lightwaves have circumnavigated. We have no ambitions to circumnavigate nor a desire to cross oceans, we coastal cruise Australia's east coast and cross Bass Strait. We have done the Whitsundays and Tasmania - we have plenty of geography in Australia to keep us interested for more than our allotted lifespan. We did cross Bass Strait once on a beam reach at roughly 8 knots, 3 reefs in the main, winds consistently over 55 knots and waves breaking clean over the cabin roof - Josepheline was fine - the crew apprehensive.

Horses for courses and if you are putting your money on a horse - choose wisely. There is ample information available to allow you to judge the pedigree and performance of virtually any yacht - if you are surprised - you did not conduct your research with diligence.

Most choices, or all choices, involve compromise.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[geem]

As an owner of a Lightwave, catamaran, I'd have to agree with Geem - maybe with some qualifications.

If you buy a catamaran because you want 'living space' then it will not have narrow hulls and will not be built to be as light as possible. It will have been designed and built to suit people living on board. Consider what is the customer base that supports the sales of Leopard - its not the individual owner - but a charter fleet (and one specific customer). How many newly launched charter yachts cross oceans - why would you build a yacht for a charter fleet to the specification of a yacht to cross an ocean? Why buy a yacht to cross an ocean if it has been built for charter in the Med or Carib. If you are buying a yacht of a certain size, big, new and privately - why would you not demand customisation - not available from Leopard. Don't knock a yacht for being inadequate to cross an ocean when, though it may pass certification, it was not actually designed for that role - blame the certification not the yacht builder.

If we receive a windward forecast - we don't sail - we stay at anchor. Sailing to windward is not the strong point of a cat and sailing into 4m seas with a 1.5 metre chop is not much fun. Off the wind we can knock spots off a monohull - and drink coffee at breakfast from porcelain cups and a tall stainless steel coffee pot - without thinking about it. We can make a casserole in the galley and watch the world going by at 10 knots with only one person on deck - as long as its off the wind. What size of monohull do you need to sail at an average of 10 knots over 100nm with one person on deck? With the wind behind the beam, but not too far aft, we can do it in a 38' cat (or if you insist - a 38' floating caravan - 2 queens, one double, 2 hot showers a day, meals with china and glass for the wine).

You are comparing multihulls that have a limited market and the largest sector of the market is the charter industry. Sensibly some builders focus on that industry - but if you insist - will sell you a yacht (cat). The monohull industry has a greatly different basis with a much larger proportion of private buyers (though customisation is still limited). There are catamaran builder focussed at the private sector but they don't sell the volumes that Lagoon produce, and are seldom seen (because the charter feels want volume).

The other factor to consider - how many people sail oceans and of those how many actually need the living space of a cat. If the answer is not many - to both of these questions - again - why would you build a cat to the rigours of ocean crossings when the market is so small..

I'd tend to point the finger at the buyers - what were they expecting, and the bureaucracy that generated the certification requirement (as it is very obviously - weak).

Lightwaves have circumnavigated. We have no ambitions to circumnavigate nor a desire to cross oceans, we coastal cruise Australia's east coast and cross Bass Strait. We have done the Whitsundays and Tasmania - we have plenty of geography in Australia to keep us interested for more than our allotted lifespan. We did cross Bass Strait once on a beam reach at roughly 8 knots, 3 reefs in the main, winds consistently over 55 knots and waves breaking clean over the cabin roof - Josepheline was fine - the crew apprehensive.

Horses for courses and if you are putting your money on a horse - choose wisely. There is ample information available to allow you to judge the pedigree and performance of virtually any yacht - if you are surprised - you did not conduct your research with diligence.

Most choices, or all choices, involve compromise.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

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View attachment 136900

Here in Bonaire (40nm off the Venezuelan coast) there are 36 visitors moorings currently available. Ten if those are occupied by cats. Except one Catana, 9 are charter type cats. That is fat hulled, high volume, high windage floating condos. People are increasingly choosing this style of cat to sail oceans. Presumably they are lured in by the huge space and comfort these boats offer at anchor. We know several that are heading into the Pacific. We know of a couple with warranty issues ongoing.

 

[Tranona]

As an owner of a Lightwave, catamaran, I'd have to agree with Geem - maybe with some qualifications.

If you buy a catamaran because you want 'living space' then it will not have narrow hulls and will not be built to be as light as possible. It will have been designed and built to suit people living on board. Consider what is the customer base that supports the sales of Leopard - its not the individual owner - but a charter fleet (and one specific customer). How many newly launched charter yachts cross oceans - why would you build a yacht for a charter fleet to the specification of a yacht to cross an ocean? Why buy a yacht to cross an ocean if it has been built for charter in the Med or Carib. If you are buying a yacht of a certain size, big, new and privately - why would you not demand customisation - not available from Leopard. Don't knock a yacht for being inadequate to cross an ocean when, though it may pass certification, it was not actually designed for that role - blame the certification not the yacht builder.


View attachment 136899
View attachment 136900

I believe most Leopards are delivered by sea to their charter destinations as are the French built ones. Unsurprising when the charter markets are the other side of the ocean from where the boats are built and shipping of such a big item is so expensive. Not without problems as there have been cases of boats and crews not arriving. Although the charter orientated cats follow much the same design pattern (see the review in YM a couple of months ago), these structural issues do seem more common on Lagoons.

 

[Neeves]

Here in Bonaire (40nm off the Venezuelan coast) there are 36 visitors moorings currently available. Ten if those are occupied by cats. Except one Catana, 9 are charter type cats. That is fat hulled, high volume, high windage floating condos. People are increasingly choosing this style of cat to sail oceans. Presumably they are lured in by the huge space and comfort these boats offer at anchor. We know several that are heading into the Pacific. We know of a couple with warranty issues ongoing.

It actually gets worse.

Leopard build a cat with a cockpit space forward of the saloon. Leopard 45. The link is too a 45' cat - and I thought the concept was also included on a smaller model - but I could not find it. Its a bit like an empty spa bath which you access though a door in the forward bulkhead of the saloon. I am sure it has regulation drain holes and on a hot Whitsunday evening would be ideal - but as comfortable and accessible as they are to the occupants these spa baths are going to take water. Frankly I think ideal for a charter yacht - but little thought appears to be invested in their after life.

As cats appear to have grown in size so do the number of levels or deck and entertaining space is now common place on the 3rd Floor - windage is awful (I hope they have good ground tackle ).

I recall a delivery of a Leopard, across the Indian Ocean - not arriving, possibly one to which Tranona eludes.

LONG WAY HOME: Charter Cat Lost on Delivery Returns to South Africa Upside Down One Year Later - Wave Train

Jonathan

Josephine and I went round the Leopard factory when they were building the first of the models with the forward spa bath idea - and I was not impressed with the design then. They are geared up and focussed on building vessels for Sunsail and The Moorings and at the time private sales were very limited. They may have increased the proportion of private sales as they, from around 2015, had an increasing presence at boat shows. But there was no customisation what you saw, The Moorings or Sunsail models, was what you got - under the Leopard brand.

I'm in no way critical - they were and are running what appears to be a successful business. I did wonder at their dependence on the charter business or Tui - but it seems to have worked.

I have never investigated the Lagoon brand - singularly unattractive (to us) - only an owner could love them.

J

 

[cherod]

Geem. You asked a good question regarding my take on the extreme examples and exotic materials in your mini-list, but I am sorry i know nothing about them. On reflextion, I do lump all catamarans that I know about in one unsafe package. I am not a marine achitect or yachting journalist so I operate on general terms. Life is easier that way. And what is the harm, they are only my personal opinions. I try really hard not to influence anyone but it could happen by the very nature of discussion.

Edit, our posts crossed. I have admitted that I do lump them all together in a general way. If you know of a design that makes a catamaran as safe as a monohull I would love to hear from you about it. Hold no bars, add as much exotic material and advanced sailing techniques as you wish. Keep the cost down, and remember it needs to be insured by odinary folk.

Dont forget that the boat with the best saftey record of all makes is the wharram cat , not a single exotic material or advanced sailing technique in sight

 

[cherod]

Can I name the monohull? Lots of monohulls I wouldn't choose to cross an ocean in but I can think of a few cats I would love to do it in.
I have already done it in a Prout Snowgoose. I wouldnt choose to do that again.
As for keeping the cost down, that won't happen. A well designed cat is an expensive machine. They cost way more to build than a similar sized monohull. Every aspect of cat ownership is higher.

Including the enjoyment ?

 

[geem]

Dont forget that the boat with the best saftey record of all makes is the wharram cat , not a single exotic material or advanced sailing technique in sight

They are such a minority these days. We have seen none all season in the Caribbean. Hundreds of Lagoons and their like. People don't want cramped accommodation and inconvenience these days. It's all dishwashers, washing machines, electric winches, electric toilets, fridge in the cockpit so you don't have to walk 10ft the the fridge inside. A different world