cardinal_mark
Well-Known Member
Yes, I thought so too but you'd never beleive it looking around... oh, and its always the yotties cos the mobos mostly seem to berth stern to!
Mark
Mark
Anchors on bow rollers
- Thread starter Judders
- Start date
Judders
Well-Known Member
It varys, it's about six a day? As I've tried to make clear, I am yet to see one where the cause of the incident is the position of the anchor, however I am too frequently seeing incidents where the damage to the innocent party, who's only crime is being berthed next to someone, suffers far more damage than they otherwise would. It is often the difference between a little aethetic damage to the gel-coat, and a hole in the side of the vessel.
Mirelle
N/A
Hang on a minute, chaps!
Judders bio says it all - he is spending all day seeing damage reports and survey reports following damage to yachts, therefore he is in command of much more data than the rest of us.
I think we should accept that he has a point, and consider what to do, no?
Judders bio says it all - he is spending all day seeing damage reports and survey reports following damage to yachts, therefore he is in command of much more data than the rest of us.
I think we should accept that he has a point, and consider what to do, no?
Judders
Well-Known Member
Re: Hang on a minute, chaps!
On the other hand it could be that because I spend all day dealing with the problems, I lack perspective on the bigger picture?
On the other hand it could be that because I spend all day dealing with the problems, I lack perspective on the bigger picture?
duncan
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
No anchor was actually designed to stow over the roller
[/ QUOTE ]
Nigel, For once I find myself having to disagree with your sentiment if not your words.
Whilst I can agree the above surely you can also agree that adding 'however many boat manutactures have designed their bows and fitted rollers to accomadate certain (common) anchor designs' would be equally valid?
In my case removal of the anchor would entail disconnecting it from the anchor chain and then taking it out of it's slot in the bowsprit forwards, over the pullpit and back over the deck leaving it presumably on the floor of the cabin as I have no locker anywhere on the boat large enough to get it in.
With reference to the original poster I feel he should also factor in the savings to the boat with the anchor which will probably not sustain the damage that would have occurred otherwise, and the additional time effort and cost involved in that party claiming too .
Where the boat is moored or berthed properly therefore it seems to me that a propery stowed anchor on the bow is quite reasonable.
This leaves boats actually out on the water and I am sure that no-one is going to suggest that people should go out without a properly rigged and ready to deploy anchor - are they?
From the far side however I have to share with you the fact that I recently aquired my new anchor from someone (who shall remain nameless unless they choose to speak up) who had decided that it wasn't big enough - not to anchor the boat but as a detterent in the marina! Now if it works as a detterent then this should also be factored into the equation by the original poster.
No anchor was actually designed to stow over the roller
[/ QUOTE ]
Nigel, For once I find myself having to disagree with your sentiment if not your words.
Whilst I can agree the above surely you can also agree that adding 'however many boat manutactures have designed their bows and fitted rollers to accomadate certain (common) anchor designs' would be equally valid?
In my case removal of the anchor would entail disconnecting it from the anchor chain and then taking it out of it's slot in the bowsprit forwards, over the pullpit and back over the deck leaving it presumably on the floor of the cabin as I have no locker anywhere on the boat large enough to get it in.
With reference to the original poster I feel he should also factor in the savings to the boat with the anchor which will probably not sustain the damage that would have occurred otherwise, and the additional time effort and cost involved in that party claiming too .
Where the boat is moored or berthed properly therefore it seems to me that a propery stowed anchor on the bow is quite reasonable.
This leaves boats actually out on the water and I am sure that no-one is going to suggest that people should go out without a properly rigged and ready to deploy anchor - are they?
From the far side however I have to share with you the fact that I recently aquired my new anchor from someone (who shall remain nameless unless they choose to speak up) who had decided that it wasn't big enough - not to anchor the boat but as a detterent in the marina! Now if it works as a detterent then this should also be factored into the equation by the original poster.
jamesjermain
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Nigel, I can't agree with you. Both the Bruce and Delta were specifically designed to sit on a bow roller and to be launched from this position. The various clones of these have similar properties. Also most modern yachts are set up so that it is almost impossible to stow the anchor inboard - if only because it would be impossible to get it past the roller furling gear and pulpit legs to the roller.
On the other hand, people who moor their boats with the anchor and roller overhanging the pontoon by several feet should have their bows cut off!
In an ideal world of offshore cruising stowing the anchor in chocks on deck and having an easy way of deploying it over the bow would be great. When I fitted Sweet lucy with a roller furling gear, I had a strap included to raise the drum high enough to get the anchor under and I still stow it in the anchor locker. But is a real s*d to get it on and off the roller and I am seriously, as I approach my sixtieth year, considering leaving it on the roller (and fitting an electric windlass).
On the other hand, people who moor their boats with the anchor and roller overhanging the pontoon by several feet should have their bows cut off!
In an ideal world of offshore cruising stowing the anchor in chocks on deck and having an easy way of deploying it over the bow would be great. When I fitted Sweet lucy with a roller furling gear, I had a strap included to raise the drum high enough to get the anchor under and I still stow it in the anchor locker. But is a real s*d to get it on and off the roller and I am seriously, as I approach my sixtieth year, considering leaving it on the roller (and fitting an electric windlass).
KevB
Well-Known Member
Re: Hang on a minute, chaps!
If you take a look at the bow of my boat you'll see I have no option but to keep the anchore on the rollers... Maybe other manufacturers should take note of the design!! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
If you take a look at the bow of my boat you'll see I have no option but to keep the anchore on the rollers... Maybe other manufacturers should take note of the design!! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Judders
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
With reference to the original poster I feel he should also factor in the savings to the boat with the anchor which will probably not sustain the damage that would have occurred otherwise, and the additional time effort and cost involved in that party claiming too .
[/ QUOTE ]
Well yes, from a proffesional point of view that's right, but I am here as a sailor, not a broker. Surely that argument lowers it to the level of bull-bars on the four-by-fours in Kew that will trebble the chance of killing the children outside the school but at least less blood will stein the windscreen.
*reaches for tin hat*
With reference to the original poster I feel he should also factor in the savings to the boat with the anchor which will probably not sustain the damage that would have occurred otherwise, and the additional time effort and cost involved in that party claiming too .
[/ QUOTE ]
Well yes, from a proffesional point of view that's right, but I am here as a sailor, not a broker. Surely that argument lowers it to the level of bull-bars on the four-by-fours in Kew that will trebble the chance of killing the children outside the school but at least less blood will stein the windscreen.
*reaches for tin hat*
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
I don't know where the seamanlike bit comes from, is it more seamanlike to haul about a hinged weight capable of doing serious damage to the person hauling it about? Surely, the seamanship comes from avoiding hitting other craft. And I certainly don't accept that making things easier on a boat is a crime.
I fully accept your qualifications to talk about the subject but feel you are coming at it from a purely engineering perspective that rates avoidance of damage to boats more highly than looking after the crew. I'll just have to disagree with you on this one and leave it at that.
I fully accept your qualifications to talk about the subject but feel you are coming at it from a purely engineering perspective that rates avoidance of damage to boats more highly than looking after the crew. I'll just have to disagree with you on this one and leave it at that.
Evadne
Well-Known Member
Re: Hang on a minute, chaps!
It's not the bigger picture that interests us here, but the problem, of which you have a lot of knowledge. The problem, as you say, is that an anchor on a bow roller is like bull bars on a road vehicle - the damage caused by the guilty party is increased unreasonably. This interests me because I can imagine it happening to me without having to make disparaging assumptions about my boat handling (for the record the last time I nearly hit anyone I was doing less than 1kt and I keep the anchor on its deck chocks. SWMBO fended us off with the deck broom.)
What is the answer then? Most people who keep the anchor on the bow roller will continue to do so, because it is "ready for use". Hands up who has had to anchor in an emergency? The only time I had to anchor in an emergency was in a previous millenium, in the entrance to Bembridge harbour. SWMBO had the anchor (25lb plough) off its chocks and through the forestays before I got to the foredeck. This was not training, she had only been sailing with me for a few years and had never handled the anchor before. IMO the reason is that even in an emergency, things happen more slowly on a boat and the only reason for keeping the anchor there is that it is too heavy to lift, and you don't have an anchor handling system as such. Or that it is one of the designs described below which won't stow on chocks.
I think Jimdew's rubber anchor fender is a great idea, it would get over the marina anchor-nutting problem as well.
If insurance companies started offering a discount for (a) storing the anchor on deck or (b) ensuring that it couldn't exacerbate any collision damage, do you think that would provide sufficient impetus? After all they are the ones who pay out for all this excess damage.
It's not the bigger picture that interests us here, but the problem, of which you have a lot of knowledge. The problem, as you say, is that an anchor on a bow roller is like bull bars on a road vehicle - the damage caused by the guilty party is increased unreasonably. This interests me because I can imagine it happening to me without having to make disparaging assumptions about my boat handling (for the record the last time I nearly hit anyone I was doing less than 1kt and I keep the anchor on its deck chocks. SWMBO fended us off with the deck broom.)
What is the answer then? Most people who keep the anchor on the bow roller will continue to do so, because it is "ready for use". Hands up who has had to anchor in an emergency? The only time I had to anchor in an emergency was in a previous millenium, in the entrance to Bembridge harbour. SWMBO had the anchor (25lb plough) off its chocks and through the forestays before I got to the foredeck. This was not training, she had only been sailing with me for a few years and had never handled the anchor before. IMO the reason is that even in an emergency, things happen more slowly on a boat and the only reason for keeping the anchor there is that it is too heavy to lift, and you don't have an anchor handling system as such. Or that it is one of the designs described below which won't stow on chocks.
I think Jimdew's rubber anchor fender is a great idea, it would get over the marina anchor-nutting problem as well.
If insurance companies started offering a discount for (a) storing the anchor on deck or (b) ensuring that it couldn't exacerbate any collision damage, do you think that would provide sufficient impetus? After all they are the ones who pay out for all this excess damage.
Judders
Well-Known Member
Re: Hang on a minute, chaps!
Well perhaps the discount for 'making the anchor safe' is worth looking at.
As has been stated previously, damage is going to get done when you hit something broad with something hard and pointy, however it can be minimised. If you have sufficient hands then the obvious one is fending, but being short handed is a further case for having the anchor readilly available. A sheaf or fender for the anchor is certainly an option.
With regard to insurance, the small boat market is relatively small, the safter we make our vessels, for our crew and in terms of the damage done to them, the less our premiums will be and that is something we will all drink to. Those who are more careful will hopefully find their premiums are less.
With regard to looking after the crew, I was bought up to look after the ship so that she may look after me. I guess that in league with do unto others... we have a duty of care to protect oru own vessel and others.
Well perhaps the discount for 'making the anchor safe' is worth looking at.
As has been stated previously, damage is going to get done when you hit something broad with something hard and pointy, however it can be minimised. If you have sufficient hands then the obvious one is fending, but being short handed is a further case for having the anchor readilly available. A sheaf or fender for the anchor is certainly an option.
With regard to insurance, the small boat market is relatively small, the safter we make our vessels, for our crew and in terms of the damage done to them, the less our premiums will be and that is something we will all drink to. Those who are more careful will hopefully find their premiums are less.
With regard to looking after the crew, I was bought up to look after the ship so that she may look after me. I guess that in league with do unto others... we have a duty of care to protect oru own vessel and others.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Re: CQR handling
Isn't it a bit moth eaten by now? The magazine, I mean.
Isn't it a bit moth eaten by now? The magazine, I mean.
Mirelle
N/A
Slightly foxed!
Front cover (charming sketch) detached, rear cover (advert for Spinnaker varnish, showing 6 Metre) and the rest pretty much intact.
Front cover (charming sketch) detached, rear cover (advert for Spinnaker varnish, showing 6 Metre) and the rest pretty much intact.
Judders
Well-Known Member
Re: Slightly foxed!
Right, well if I go now I'll catch the 17:45 opening of the St Katherine's dock lock on the way and I can laugh/hold my head in embarrassment at the fending off, or lack of it.
Right, well if I go now I'll catch the 17:45 opening of the St Katherine's dock lock on the way and I can laugh/hold my head in embarrassment at the fending off, or lack of it.
ditchcrawler
Well-Known Member
I have an anchor(Delta) specifically designed to launch from the stemhead,& I have fitted an electric windlass to facilitate matters due to a back operation some years ago.These make anchoring easier apart from the fact that the Delta will not fit in the anchor well/locker.
I have not hit anything yet & will hope that I don't.For me the benefits of the anchor on the bow roller far outway anything else.
I have not hit anything yet & will hope that I don't.For me the benefits of the anchor on the bow roller far outway anything else.
duncan
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
To qualify my point, I deal with boating accidents for a living and have, this week, had a number of such cases. I find it irratating that in all cases the damage has been made worse by the presence of an anchor
[/ QUOTE ]
probably confused me
your reference to 4x4's and bull bars is way off beam and insulting; shame as I believe you started by raising an excellent issue.
having established that your key point now seems to revolve around damage/money (many have responded as to the why) lets examine some possible solutions
I would suggest the following -
1. plastic/rubber coated anchors - sea fishing boats use this to minimise the damage from lead weights coming into contact with GRP. May need periodic recoating but generally the pointed bit isn't actually exposed on a bow fitting at all so could be left uncoated (and thus potentially avoiding possible reduction in performance). Downside primarily cost but possible high marks in the style arena!
2. compulsory beak designs for anchors to stow in that result in GRP being at the exposed perimeters - in my case this is already the situation. Issue is manufactuters would rebel as their styling houses would resign; additional length results in marinas charging more, longer boats mean less room to manoevre and potentialy more accidents.
Over to others............
To qualify my point, I deal with boating accidents for a living and have, this week, had a number of such cases. I find it irratating that in all cases the damage has been made worse by the presence of an anchor
[/ QUOTE ]
probably confused me
your reference to 4x4's and bull bars is way off beam and insulting; shame as I believe you started by raising an excellent issue.
having established that your key point now seems to revolve around damage/money (many have responded as to the why) lets examine some possible solutions
I would suggest the following -
1. plastic/rubber coated anchors - sea fishing boats use this to minimise the damage from lead weights coming into contact with GRP. May need periodic recoating but generally the pointed bit isn't actually exposed on a bow fitting at all so could be left uncoated (and thus potentially avoiding possible reduction in performance). Downside primarily cost but possible high marks in the style arena!
2. compulsory beak designs for anchors to stow in that result in GRP being at the exposed perimeters - in my case this is already the situation. Issue is manufactuters would rebel as their styling houses would resign; additional length results in marinas charging more, longer boats mean less room to manoevre and potentialy more accidents.
Over to others............
A_7
Well-Known Member
Known as 'can openers' and not allowed in this position for racing!
Vara
Well-Known Member
Re: Nic 55s & Vic 34s,JSSC
Those boats are designed to be character forming,and therefore the bug geration factor is built in,which is why they don't have spray hoods,furling gear,self stowing anchors,auto-helms or heaters that work!
Those boats are designed to be character forming,and therefore the bug geration factor is built in,which is why they don't have spray hoods,furling gear,self stowing anchors,auto-helms or heaters that work!
G
Guest
Guest
Merchant ships etc.
Sorry but the comparison of yachts and ships does not work. NO Merchant or Naval Ship that I know of carries it's anchor protruding past the stem. They are stowed in Hawse ... many actually passing INTO a stowage 'casing' built into the hawse.
Even Square-Riggers of Nelson days etc. - the anchors stowed aft of the stem ....
And anyway - I'd love to see seaman lift and stow a ships anchor !! Many of the ships I was on had anchors of 30T or more !!! One link of the chain weighed more than your whole anchor system on the average yacht !!
So nerdy nerds .......... I'm right - yer wrong ...
Onto Bow Rollers .... They are there for general cable and line work - not to be rests for anchors. The shape of some anchor suits a roller and is NOT designed specially to suit a roller - it is designed to work on the seabed ....
Finally I know various people that stopped stowing anchors like that - because a certain well known Marina Company - random measure boats moored in their marinas .... they include ALL appendages / itesm sticking out / over and from any deck fwd or aft ..... that few inches of anchor can trip - sorry about the pun !! - the calculation of fees into next bracket !!!
So why would people have retractable bow-sprits, stowable davits that turn inward, etc. etc ..... to look nice ?
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Sorry but the comparison of yachts and ships does not work. NO Merchant or Naval Ship that I know of carries it's anchor protruding past the stem. They are stowed in Hawse ... many actually passing INTO a stowage 'casing' built into the hawse.
Even Square-Riggers of Nelson days etc. - the anchors stowed aft of the stem ....
And anyway - I'd love to see seaman lift and stow a ships anchor !! Many of the ships I was on had anchors of 30T or more !!! One link of the chain weighed more than your whole anchor system on the average yacht !!
So nerdy nerds .......... I'm right - yer wrong ...
Onto Bow Rollers .... They are there for general cable and line work - not to be rests for anchors. The shape of some anchor suits a roller and is NOT designed specially to suit a roller - it is designed to work on the seabed ....
Finally I know various people that stopped stowing anchors like that - because a certain well known Marina Company - random measure boats moored in their marinas .... they include ALL appendages / itesm sticking out / over and from any deck fwd or aft ..... that few inches of anchor can trip - sorry about the pun !! - the calculation of fees into next bracket !!!
So why would people have retractable bow-sprits, stowable davits that turn inward, etc. etc ..... to look nice ?
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
Re: Merchant ships etc.
Praps we are violently agreeing, the anchor on my boat does not protrude beyond the stem, it sits on a roller that itself is 6 inches to the rear of the front of the bits of stanless plate that make up the roller/stem mechanism. So take the anchor off and any boat that we hit, none so far, would still get 6 inches of steel up 'em. And regarding the strength of the rollers, the ones on Rival Spirit could haul the Oriana up the Grand Canyon and still look new!
Praps we are violently agreeing, the anchor on my boat does not protrude beyond the stem, it sits on a roller that itself is 6 inches to the rear of the front of the bits of stanless plate that make up the roller/stem mechanism. So take the anchor off and any boat that we hit, none so far, would still get 6 inches of steel up 'em. And regarding the strength of the rollers, the ones on Rival Spirit could haul the Oriana up the Grand Canyon and still look new!