Anchors and anchoring, one of Panope's latest videos

[Neeves]

I think everyone is missing the point. We can’t go changing anchors willy-nilly, we all made a great deal of effort to explain to the wife that we need this new latest and greatest anchor. What are we supposed to do? Tell her it’s somehow lost it’s stickyness?
We have no choice but defend the expensive bit of steel on the end of our bow roller

That's fine and perfectly understood.

You are not alone.

As long as you know, understand the inadequacies and take precautionary measures then holding onto what you have (I'm referring to anchors but the fiscally sound wife will be more important) is financially sensible.

Its those unwilling to accept the compromises, willing to ignore (in this case) fairly robust evidence, and those that preach the indefensible that are the worry.

But keep a watch on ebay . - for anchors not wives


I want children and grandchildren to have warm, safe and happy memories that they repeat (possibly rose tinted, embellishment is good) to their partners and their children - of their sailing exploits and holidays with their parents or grandparents. Its fond memories that will grow the 'sport', recreation (whatever it is called). I'm enraptured with being on the water - I want others to also enjoy it. Forget bragging rights at anchor - its the times the grandchildren demand to 'go to sea for a week, this time!' or the wife saying - 'we could live on the boat this summer near Ullapool instead of 2 weeks in Rosas' that are my measures of success.


Jonathan


edit - Rosas is just an example (for an equivalent to Rosas, somewhere in Fiji for us - makes me shudder) and for Ullapool - back to Tasmania, Port Davey). Just google 'Port Davey' and look at the pictures.

 

[Star-Lord]

Will the roll bar become like the dodo, successful in its time and niche, but ultimately left behind by better solutions? Was it a necessary stepping stone? Did it become a fad? Will loosing the roll bar become a fad?

I'm not answering these questions.

As I have written before the roll bar on the Rocna is easily wrapped and snagged in your own chain!! A new gen without roll bar is the best option.

 

[Pete7]

In many seabeds both Rocna and Supreme are more than adequate

That'll do, Johnathan says they are more than adequate.

If you want more certainty - buy a Spade or Excel (but both, all, fail in thin mud) and both Spade/Excel are expensive (though if you keep the anchor for 10 years - the cost is peanuts (even to poor Neevsy ) sorry Dom, could not resist !

Nah, too expensive, do you really want to chuck over £500 into the oggin and risk loosing it? and lets not get started on a Ultra.

Pete

 

[geem]

That'll do, Johnathan says they are more than adequate.



Nah, too expensive, do you really want to chuck over £500 into the oggin and risk loosing it? and lets not get started on a Ultra.

Pete

You wont lose it if you remember to tie some string to it?

 

[thinwater]

You wont lose it if you remember to tie some string to it?

I'll have to remember that one!

 

[thinwater]

If you grind the roll bar off a Manson Supreme would it help or hinder it's holding capacity ?

I did that with one roll bar anchor to see if it increased or decreased holding capacity:

• The holding capacity was similar (within experimental error, 3 pulls in fine sand). I did not explore it farther.
• The anchor will land butter side up 90% of the time if laid carefully. But it will not set the other 10%.
• If the anchor flips out there is no chance it will reset.

Though a roll bar does microscopically increase the chance of trash clogging, the risk of not setting after a trip is far greater. BTW, mud clogging is not generally cause (IME) just by the roll bar. They clog around the shank too.

I have modified a number of anchors for testing, and I would not suggest it. Modern anchors are good and most likely you will make it bad, possibly very bad. I have my preferences, but I'd be happy with any of them (properly sized--some require going up a size).

 

[NormanS]

If you grind the roll bar off a Manson Supreme would it help or hinder it's holding capacity ?

The roll bar is not an ornament. It is the equivalent of the stock on anchors which have stocks. (Think of Fisherman etc). If you remove the roll bar, how do you ensure that the anchor sits the correct way to dig in. The clue is in the name, it rolls the anchor into the correct orientation. Don't even think about cutting it off.

 

[Pete7]

You wont lose it if you remember to tie some string to it?

Tried that. We watched the "string" disappearing over the side and eventually the end of the string too Thankfully we were going diving so first pair down take a lift bag and find the end please.

 

[Neeves]

Just note the third line in post 101.

No anchor is perfect, learn when to use, and not use, what you have.

Don't be afraid to use your second anchor, on your primary rode or on your spare rode, that's one reason you carry more than one anchor and more than one rode. If you are veering set the second anchor on the spare rode to quell the veering - again its not difficult (either from the dinghy or moving the yacht (you can get the position correct of the second anchor (provided you marked where the first one is) from you GPS. And take note of NormanS' Bahamian moor.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

The main reason I dove into anchor and anchor rigging testing was for MY peace of mind. I'm an engineer and I like to understand what I have to trust.

I also know four rock climbers (witnessed three of the incidents) that made seemingly minor rigging or anchoring errors. They didn't end well. They all have sailing analogs.

• Harness not worn properly (cratered-dead)
• Anchor rotated out (ledge fall--broke lots of stuff)
• Belaying error (ground fall--broke lots of stuff)
• Swing possibility miscalculated, resulted in severe impact (dead)

So I like to really understand, in engneering terms, what my anchor is doing. Not always possible, but I can, at least, understand the forces involved. Combined with some knowledge of the anchor's properties, I can evaluated the risk.

 

[[70521]]

Really? I'm guessing you either have no idea what a Northill is or have not watched the videos. Northills were marketed for boaters as well.

The video was watched hence the comment. I'm just challenging Steve's methodology, there are a lot of people out there who take what he is saying at face value and the single source of truth and I don't.

Still, I'm out of this thread. We all understand that anchors are a contentious topic. Until the anchoring/boating industry can develop a standard set of tests to compare different products the arguments will run and run, meanwhile I'll wait for the UK to return to a post COVID normal and go sailing.

 

[Neeves]

Sandy,

I'm with you Panope is not the bible - he offers one view (and his technique is compelling (which I think is part of your comment). Prior to this we had the Pictures of Anchor thread - equally compelling - it sucked people in, they bought the product - and its not what was portrayed.

Both Pictures of Anchors and Videos of Anchors offer a view if anchors that most people did not appreciate - no wonder they are persuasive . The comments can be worse,, subjective - the viewer needs to decide if they have merit or not.

Stick around, your criticisms are needed - the more people who demand substance - the better. If you feel the portrayal subjective say so!

Anchor testing does have an accepted test protocol - its conducted by Classification Societies - but no test (for most products) covers every situation. But anchor testing is expensive - every little helps (including under water pictures and videos).

Jonathan

 

[Bouba]

. But anchor testing is expensive - every little helps (including under water pictures and videos).

Jonathan

It doesn’t have to be expensive nor so contrived. All a manufacturer has to do is give an anchor to someone on this forum. They then go away and use it in real world situations. They report back to the forum and we debate the hell out of it and arrive at a distillation of the truth.
Every manufacturer gives one anchor to one of our boaters. It’s not ‘scientific’ but neither is randomly dropping it in the seabed one time because the variables are infinite.

 

[Neeves]

It doesn’t have to be expensive nor so contrived. All a manufacturer has to do is give an anchor to someone on this forum. They then go away and use it in real world situations. They report back to the forum and we debate the hell out of it and arrive at a distillation of the truth.
Every manufacturer gives one anchor to one of our boaters. It’s not ‘scientific’ but neither is randomly dropping it in the seabed one time because the variables are infinite.

Older anchors had a propensity to drag. Older anchors (for a 15kg anchor) had a holding capacity of, say 1,000kg in a good sand seabed. New anchors do not have a propensity to drag, they have a hold (when compared alongside the older family members) of 2,000kg - so high hold seems to mean a lower frequency of dragging. No-one here can measure that 1,000kg, let alone the 2,000kg of the newer anchors.

So - which anchor do you buy - the one with no hold data or one that has been tested (at some considerable cost).

Setting distance is but one characteristic - how are you going to measure that (if the anchor is given to someone who sails in the Northern part of the North Sea). We really want to know how it performs in mud, thin soupy mud, light weed (how are we going to measure weed?), sand, pebbles .....

Actually all of this can be overcome - if it were organised - it just needs moving the anchor around to like minded people (and if its an anchor maker of some repute - they will have a load cell and a means to offer the 2t tension (a 4X4 with a winch on a beach).

its not so daft.

And I do agree some anchor testing, some testing, is contrived - as if simply to fill a page count. But it is difficult to test anchors where it is not contrived.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

Older anchors had a propensity to drag. Older anchors (for a 15kg anchor) had a holding capacity of, say 1,000kg in a good sand seabed. New anchors do not have a propensity to drag, they have a hold (when compared alongside the older family members) of 2,000kg - so high hold seems to mean a lower frequency of dragging. No-one here can measure that 1,000kg, let alone the 2,000kg of the newer anchors.

So - which anchor do you buy - the one with no hold data or one that has been tested (at some considerable cost).

Setting distance is but one characteristic - how are you going to measure that (if the anchor is given to someone who sails in the Northern part of the North Sea). We really want to know how it performs in mud, thin soupy mud, light weed (how are we going to measure weed?), sand, pebbles .....

Actually all of this can be overcome - if it were organised - it just needs moving the anchor around to like minded people (and if its an anchor maker of some repute - they will have a load cell and a means to offer the 2t tension (a 4X4 with a winch on a beach).

its not so daft.

And I do agree some anchor testing, some testing, is contrived - as if simply to fill a page count. But it is difficult to test anchors where it is not contrived.

Jonathan

I have to say it again. A 4 X 4 with a winch on a beach is nothing like real world anchoring. Well, not in the world in which I anchor.

 

[Neeves]

I have to say it again. A 4 X 4 with a winch on a beach is nothing like real world anchoring. ☹ Well, not in the world in which I anchor.

But the alternative is a big tug, capable of tensioning a rode to 2,000kg. It will produce the same results as a 4x4 with a winch - neither is real world anchoring.

In your world you will never know the ultimate hold of an anchor.

So let us disregard all the tests with big MoBos that are commonly used and those tests done in the seabed using 4 x 4s - you have now wiped out virtually every anchor test ever done -

You could use a big yacht with a little anchor - are you convinced that a 5kg anchors replicates the performance of a 30kg anchor.

Happy?.

I've said it before - stop being destructively critical - make a positive, feasible suggesting that the assembled members would support - and if I can - I'll give it a go.

I'm happy with dissent, I agree (in part) with what you say - but I don't have an alternative.

Jonathan

 

[Pete7]

Sandy,

I'm with you Panope is not the bible - he offers one view (and his technique is compelling (which I think is part of your comment). Prior to this we had the Pictures of Anchor thread - equally compelling - it sucked people in, they bought the product - Jonathan

You just couldn't resist could you How about maintaining the moral high ground rather than the constant digs at the Mantus anchor? twice in this thread I think and yet you recommend the expensive Viking copy. You can do better Johnathan.

Pete

 

[Neeves]

You just couldn't resist could you How about maintaining the moral high ground rather than the constant digs at the Mantus anchor? twice in this thread I think and yet you recommend the expensive Viking copy. You can do better Johnathan.

Pete

Quite right! I'll try to do better......

How's this?

Thanks Pete, I would not have wanted to post this without your introduction You will notice I did not mention names at all, nor did I provide a link.

Look at the Mantus and Viking very carefully and if you are sharp you will notice some significant design differences (which results in the Viking having twice the hold). If you think extolling the performance of a Mantus having the same hold as a Delta is admirable - please enlighten me. You will note that I have made the point - high hold, less dragging - so why would I not want to discourage people from buying a Mantus, when there are other much better (in my opinion) options. Maybe you think I should be praising lemons. You will of course have already noticed that the Viking is fabricated using high tensile steel in the fluke allowing a lighter anchor and because of the design differences and thinner fluke - the anchor develops hold exceptionally fast and does not sacrifice strength. It will have slipped observation but that straight weld across the toe of the Mantus, where it is prone to bending, does not exist on the Viking as they employ a 'sort of' arrow head weld.

You will already have noticed that the fluke of a Mantus looks like a copy of a Rocna, the roll bar was patented by Bruce and that the cranked shank, to allow swift deployment, came from Gordon Lyall, Delta. The removable shank was introduced by Spade and then on the aluminium Excel - and you mention copying . . Now what makes Mantus unique is that its a 21st century anchor with an mid 20th century hold - surely they could have done better than that! but maybe they continued their theme of copying (as they did originally with the bendy shank)..


On prices - I don't comment on pricing. I limit my comments to the technology and technical data. If someone wants to buy they can decide if an item merits the cost. I recommend both Spade and Excel - and I know both are expensive. I also recommend a Kobra as a budget buy (as I know its cheapish, as we bought one, Preston Marina chandlery). I have suggested people hold fire, or keep their wallets closed, until the Epsilon is released and some user reports filter through - as it looks a bargain at the prices quoted (and I 'rate' the Classification Society testing (even if it is conducted with a big tugboat ). I also discourage purchase of an M2 and Vulcan as there are so few user reports (and not have seen the M2 in the flesh, or metal, it would be very unfair to comment at all). Though I have said the Rocna is a good anchor - I think Spade and Excel better as the roll b ar is a liability (adds to the clogging) and Excel and Spade both illustrate that an anchor can be designed without a roll bar (and my conclusions are shared by Steve (Panope) and John (Morgans Cloud)

Thanks Pete.

Jonathan

 

[doug748]

Panope nails it for me. He has slowly, and with great good nature, dismantled most preconceptions spouted about anchors.

Any criticism of his mode of operation is myopic. Not all his tests are realistic for everyone's situation, If you doubt the test you bear that caveat in mind, however the the results are there in front of you.
He says what he is going to do, does it, and gives you the results. For any doubters, he shows you the video of what actually happens on the seabed, no if's and buts. Where he has a prejudice he tells you what it is, where he has a theory he explains it.

There was a time when holding power was the holy grail and we all went out and bought anchors that could do that one overrated thing well. Steve Goodwin then showed us the fly in the ointment - that some units reset poorly. He is now demonstrating that veering exposes some anchors to criticism; that tandem anchors are a poor idea and that the performance of Bruce may be transformed by weight in the chain.

We might all have been better off sticking with a Delta in the first place. :- }

.

 

[NormanS]

But the alternative is a big tug, capable of tensioning a rode to 2,000kg. It will produce the same results as a 4x4 with a winch - neither is real world anchoring.

In your world you will never know the ultimate hold of an anchor.

So let us disregard all the tests with big MoBos that are commonly used and those tests done in the seabed using 4 x 4s - you have now wiped out virtually every anchor test ever done -

You could use a big yacht with a little anchor - are you convinced that a 5kg anchors replicates the performance of a 30kg anchor.

Happy?.

I've said it before - stop being destructively critical - make a positive, feasible suggesting that the assembled members would support - and if I can - I'll give it a go.

I'm happy with dissent, I agree (in part) with what you say - but I don't have an alternative.

Jonathan

When I was a young lad, I built a sand yacht out of bed angle irons and motor bike wheels. I would have been quite happy to have tested its anchor on the beach. ?
Now, with a boat, I anchor in water.
But I take your point, it is well nigh impossible to carry out proper scientific testing, removing all the variables.
I do my own testing, by anchoring and anchoring and anchoring.......