Anchors and anchoring, one of Panope's latest videos

[Neeves]

Yawing and Veering - I suspect that most people here know exactly what is being discussed when the words are ascribed to a post on anchoring. If they have not known what the words mean - they are not very inquisitive.

Now I'm interested as I've never tried a riding sail.

In an anchorage where the wind is coming from variable directions due to a headland, some valleys down which the wind is funnelled etc etc and the yacht is veering (or yawing) - or if you prefer yawing (and veering) to every bullet and gust - does a riding sail help? It does not require anything as large as a headland nor valleys to create these gusts from variable directions - just go to any airport (that is still operating, most in Australia are largely mothballed) and go when its a bit breezy. As the planes c come in to land they veer (or yaw) all over the place - yet the geography round the airport can be flat. Wind veers or yaws simply because of friction with the surface, lets complicate the issue and call it shear, or is it sheer? As Thinwater says when you sail and are sailing to the wind even out on open water you are constantly trimming a sail or altering course - simply though lifts and knocks - and when you are racing the wind is always stronger (more pressure in modern parlance) over there where the competition is making hay and you are wallowing in a calm patch. Now I understand that lifts and knocks don't matter when you are cruising, and matter even less in a cruising cat when you are on autopilot - but they are still there).

In my complete ignorance a riding sail will only make matters worse as the gusts will impact an even larger side (beam? preferred word) area - but maybe I've missed something.

I confess our solution is to assess the angles of the gusts and set two anchor to accommodate, not the extremes, but the averages of the directions. This allows each anchor to be tensioned in its set direction and the 'V' of the 2 rodes stabilises the yacht. Setting the anchors to the dominant gust direction means that the weakness of any anchor to side loading is reduced and Panope's recent results are less applicable.

So tell me how a riding sail manages this common situation.

I also assume that people who are subject to veering (yawing) or yawing (veering) as a result of some intrinsic 'design' of their yacht (dinghy on the foredeck, big rolled up 150% Genoa) know to remove these devices and maybe deploy some form of hammerlock should the movement of the yacht cause discomfort. They could also deploy a second anchor (as everyone carries one, don't they?). They could also deploy a riding sail (which might be easier than removing a 150% Genoa). As I say - I can see a riding sail exacerbating a variable wind direction and agree a hammerlock might help tame it.

We carry a spare anchor (or 3) and each can be used as a primary. To me, being parsimonious, it is simpler to deploy a second anchor than deploy a riding sail (less easy as we have no backstay) - each to their own - and I'm not convinced (and I'm waiting to be convinced) that a riding sail will calm bullets.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

There was a thread over on Cruisers Forum titled something like

'Pictures of anchors setting'

I cannot find the thread now and it seems to have been replaced by a much edited and significantly shorter thread: I have not waded through the new thread - one reason being - life is too short.

Mantus Anchor on Test - Page 7 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

In the original thread a conclusion reached was that Mantus was a s good as a Rocna, actually better than a Rocna - but it was never defined why it was better. Another feature of the original thread was the recurring theme to denigrate the Excel and to only show grudging acceptance of Spade. Fortress came in for repetitive caning. Anchors such as Kobra were thrown into the reject basket along with Excel.

The thread was exceptional for the sheer number of images of anchors set underwater. People on CF went into raptures over the original thread and the thread was rated as being of exceptional value. It was originally a sticky, but this honorific title was dropped (soon after criticism was published of the Mantus). I suspect most people had never seen the sheer volume of such a huge cross section of images of set anchors. Name an anchor and it was featured. The thread was powerful and a number of members were grateful for the thread and based their purchase decisions on the information and pictures provided, they said, posted, so in the thread. The key role and star in the thread was the Mantus anchor and many people bought one - on the strength of the thread.

Now we have people going into raptures of the Vid thread (and I suspect some of the same people who approved of the Pictures thread) - which as it turns out comes to the opposite conclusions to the thread on Pictures of Anchors. Spade and Excel appear to be the best anchor from the viewpoint of the video thread but were caned on the Picture thread. Mantus was the best anchor from the Pictures thread but is very average on the video thread.



Excuse me if I say there is a contradiction here, or there. There are other contradictions - but this one sticks out.

A picture is worth a thousand words and a video even more - but, I think, that contradiction is a worry.

Jonathan

CORRECTION: Found it:

Photos of Anchors Setting - Page 61 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

But using YBW search engine, not CF

 

[thinwater]

In veering gusts a riding sail will make the boat slide across more quickly, no question about that. There will be an increase in rode tension as well, on the order of 10%, depending on the angle (yes, I have measured riding sail drag at angles). With normal yawing, this is more than made up for by the overall reduction in drag (the boat does not swing nearly as far), but in this case it would depend on other factors (if the boat is on one anchor or two, and underwater profile). Over all, the help with wind induced yawing only, if any, would be minimal and not worth the trouble.

• If the boat is anchored with V-anchors, a drogue off the transom should slow the swing but not reduce rode tension.
• If the boat is on a single anchor, either a hammer lock or a drogue from the bow should slow the swing and reduce rode tension very slightly.

 

[Adios]

life is too short.

Looooooong post about a picture thread

The key role and star in the thread was the Mantus anchor and many people bought one - on the strength of the thread.

Mantus was the best anchor from the Pictures thread but is very average on the video thread.

A picture is worth a thousand words and a video even more - but, I think, that contradiction is a worry.

Easy to see how that can happen. Picture thread being better than nothing and being a novel idea got people chattering. Naturally its hard to take a photo from a boat while it's anchor is dragging so they are all pictures of nicely set anchors. I wouldn't have put much stock in that thread, there is so much of the story not visible in a picture of the final resting place. I guess you are assuming it was more influential than it was. But expect it was considered better than nothing and added to other info that a mantus was good.

Now we have video which shows that while the mantus sets, the spade sets quicker and drags less. I think its the V keel which allows the point to push down through the substrate more easily than a flat base. Makes sense. Video shows us more of the whole story so that is more influential.

 

[NormanS]

In veering gusts a riding sail will make the boat slide across more quickly, no question about that. There will be an increase in rode tension as well, on the order of 10%, depending on the angle (yes, I have measured riding sail drag at angles). With normal yawing, this is more than made up for by the overall reduction in drag (the boat does not swing nearly as far), but in this case it would depend on other factors (if the boat is on one anchor or two, and underwater profile). Over all, the help with wind induced yawing only, if any, would be minimal and not worth the trouble.

• If the boat is anchored with V-anchors, a drogue off the transom should slow the swing but not reduce rode tension.
• If the boat is on a single anchor, either a hammer lock or a drogue from the bow should slow the swing and reduce rode tension very slightly.

Just for interest, have you actually used a riding sail in real conditions? If so, what made you decide not to use one? Was the figure of 10% found by physical measurements, or by calculation?
Most of my experience has been with ketches, which of course, tend to lie quieter at anchor, than sloops, but I find that even that can be helped by the "weather cock" effect of a riding sail.
Strong gusts coming from varying directions can be a problem, particularly if anchored behind high ground. Some of our most dramatic anchorages are in mountainous areas, but because of gusting winds barreling down the hill, are not always the best places to choose, if exceptionally strong winds are expected. In these circumstances, our own choice is, if possible, to anchor where the land is lower, the wind is steadier, may average stronger, but still in a place completely sheltered from the sea.
Maybe it's from a reasoned choice of anchorage, maybe it's from having ketches,, maybe it's from having relatively heavy chain, maybe it's from the occasional use of a riding sail, maybe it's simply good fortune, maybe it's from a combination of all of the above, but we tend to lie quietly, and do very little yawing/sheering/veering or charging about, putting shock loading on the rode.

 

[Neeves]

Easy to see how that can happen. Picture thread being better than nothing and being a novel idea got people chattering. Naturally its hard to take a photo from a boat while it's anchor is dragging so they are all pictures of nicely set anchors. I wouldn't have put much stock in that thread, there is so much of the story not visible in a picture of the final resting place. I guess you are assuming it was more influential than it was. But expect it was considered better than nothing and added to other info that a mantus was good.

Now we have video which shows that while the mantus sets, the spade sets quicker and drags less. I think its the V keel which allows the point to push down through the substrate more easily than a flat base. Makes sense. Video shows us more of the whole story so that is more influential.

I'm not doubting the influence of photographs nor the power of the video

I'm questioning the totally different, contradictory, conclusions and though there is the contradiction the populist viewing public do not appear to mind - nor question.

The methodology of analysis should result in some form of overlap of conclusions - this does not appear to have happened. Both are examination of the same anchors, both used multiple seabeds, both are meant to be representative of 'real life', one is real life.

Anchor testing to be useful should develop conclusions that are largely reproducible, whatever the methodology (accepting that some anchor will work better than others in certain seabeds) but when you have totally different results for the same anchors, not just one anchor but many, and when the results are developed in a reasonable cross section of seabeds I would expect minimal divergence.

Jonathan

 

[geem]

Just for interest, have you actually used a riding sail in real conditions? If so, what made you decide not to use one? Was the figure of 10% found by physical measurements, or by calculation?
Most of my experience has been with ketches, which of course, tend to lie quieter at anchor, than sloops, but I find that even that can be helped by the "weather cock" effect of a riding sail.
Strong gusts coming from varying directions can be a problem, particularly if anchored behind high ground. Some of our most dramatic anchorages are in mountainous areas, but because of gusting winds barreling down the hill, are not always the best places to choose, if exceptionally strong winds are expected. In these circumstances, our own choice is, if possible, to anchor where the land is lower, the wind is steadier, may average stronger, but still in a place completely sheltered from the sea.
Maybe it's from a reasoned choice of anchorage, maybe it's from having ketches,, maybe it's from having relatively heavy chain, maybe it's from the occasional use of a riding sail, maybe it's simply good fortune, maybe it's from a combination of all of the above, but we tend to lie quietly, and do very little yawing/sheering/veering or charging about, putting shock loading on the rode.

We also have a ketch. We find that we also don't sail around our anchor as seems to be very common in modern sloop designs. We dont use a riding sail as we have never found the need for one. We have been in anchorages susceptible to a cross swell and we find setting the fully battened mizzen tight and flat makes a huge difference to the roll but this is the only time we use it like that.
We weigh about 18+ tonnes and use 10mm chain. We do use long snubbers routinely. May be this is why we dont need a riding sail as all other aspects of our boats seem similar. We also tend to sit quietly and silently such that being below you have very little knowledge about the weather up top?

 

[Adios]

I'm questioning the totally different, contradictory, conclusions and though there is the contradiction the populist viewing public do not appear to mind - nor question.

I wonder if there is an element of exaggeration and assumption. Where they totally different? I didn't see the mantis do terrible in a video. Seems more like the spade and mantis swapped positions near the top.

And I can't see the evidence for people not minding different tests giving somewhat different results. You were smart enough to notice it, I'm sure most other people were also smart enough to notice, but just because you were the first to make a post pointing out the different conclusion I don't think thats proof that no one else noticed or cared.

The methodology of analysis should result in some form of overlap of conclusions - this does not appear to have happened.

Which video did the mantis look useless? If they look good but not the best then thats still a decent amount of overlap of conclusion.

 

[noelex]

Easy to see how that can happen. Picture thread being better than nothing and being a novel idea got people chattering. Naturally its hard to take a photo from a boat while it's anchor is dragging so they are all pictures of nicely set anchors. I wouldn't have put much stock in that thread, there is so much of the story not visible in a picture of the final resting place. I guess you are assuming it was more influential than it was. But expect it was considered better than nothing and added to other info that a mantus was good.

Now we have video which shows that while the mantus sets, the spade sets quicker and drags less. I think its the V keel which allows the point to push down through the substrate more easily than a flat base. Makes sense. Video shows us more of the whole story so that is more influential.

Thanks for the comments. I hope people look at the images and draw their own conclusions. The difference between the excellent and not so good anchors is not hard to see.

From photos of the seabed (providing they are clear) it is quite easy to see the history showing if the anchor has moved, so anchors that have dragged are reasonably obvious.

If you look through the thread (sorry there are lots of photos), there are a few images of anchors actually dragging when the photo was taken, but many more where the marks in the substrate show that the anchor has moved. These are anchors that are deployed by real cruising boats and are dragging due to real wind forces.

Steve’s videos are great and he should be congratulated. I know the effort involved in collecting even still images, and videos take much more work. Overall his results are not dissimilar to the conclusions you may draw from looking at my photos although there are some differences. Notably, in Steve’s tests the CQR has done much better and the Rocna much worse than shown in my photos.

The steel Spade is an excellent anchor, but I think Steve has said on at least one occasion that the Mantus M1 is the fastest setting anchor, which is something that is also obvious in my images. In the posted video on the veering test the Mantus M1 did the best of all the roll bar anchors and the 45lb Mantus M1 was rated second by Steve (after the Fortress) in the previous soft mud video.

 

[Neeves]

Clutching at straws.... Fastest setting does not mean a good anchor. To me if an anchor sets in a shank length or 1.5 shank lengths - makes no difference (and I doubt anyone at their bow would notice the difference). The Mantus was best of a pretty bad bunch in the veering tests, we don't need mediocre veering resistance we need good veering resistance

High hold seems a good basis from which to start, high veering resistance comes a close second. Proof testing seems a useful test, or better than nothing. Classification Testing seems reproducible - how does Mantus compare.

So how does the hold of a Mantus compare to a Spade or Excel. How does veering resistance of a Mantus compare to that of a Spade or Excel. What is the difference in setting distance of a Mantus to a Spade or Excel. Have you any evidence that an Excel has bent, have you any evidence that a Mantus has bent

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

Thanks for the comments. I hope people look at the images and draw their own conclusions. The difference between the excellent and not so good anchors is not hard to see.

From photos of the seabed (providing they are clear) it is quite easy to see the history showing if the anchor has moved, so anchors that have dragged are reasonably obvious.

If you look through the thread (sorry there are lots of photos), there are a few images of anchors actually dragging when the photo was taken, but many more where the marks in the substrate show that the anchor has moved. These are anchors that are deployed by real cruising boats and are dragging due to real wind forces.

Steve’s videos are great and he should be congratulated. I know the effort involved in collecting even still images, and videos take much more work. Overall his results are not dissimilar to the conclusions you may draw from looking at my photos although there are some differences. Notably, in Steve’s tests the CQR has done much better and the Rocna much worse than shown in my photos.

The steel Spade is an excellent anchor, but I think Steve has said on at least one occasion that the Mantus M1 is the fastest setting anchor, which is something that is also obvious in my images. In the posted video on the veering test the Mantus M1 did the best of all the roll bar anchors and the 45lb Mantus M1 was rated second by Steve (after the Fortress) in the previous soft mud video.

Actually, I think Steve said the Northill was the fastest setting... but clearly not the best. So fastest setting is important but not everything.

My feeling is that consistency is everything, like any all-around championship. Neeves has also pointed out that perhaps there is no such thing, for every circumstance. There seems to be truth in that. We have some contenders.

 

[thinwater]

Just for interest, have you actually used a riding sail in real conditions? Yes, or I would not have commented. If so, what made you decide not to use one? Was the figure of 10% found by physical measurements, or by calculation? I do testing for many reasons. This was quantified with load cell readings and was part of a test of several riding sail designs. That said, calculation and measurement both include a LOT of variables, including sail design, waves, and underwater profile and how that affects movement. When I said about, that is more like 10% +/- 5%.
Most of my experience has been with ketches, which of course, tend to lie quieter at anchor, than sloops, but I find that even that can be helped by the "weather cock" effect of a riding sail.
Strong gusts coming from varying directions can be a problem, particularly if anchored behind high ground. Some of our most dramatic anchorages are in mountainous areas, but because of gusting winds barreling down the hill, are not always the best places to choose, if exceptionally strong winds are expected. In these circumstances, our own choice is, if possible, to anchor where the land is lower, the wind is steadier, may average stronger, but still in a place completely sheltered from the sea.
Maybe it's from a reasoned choice of anchorage, maybe it's from having ketches,, maybe it's from having relatively heavy chain, maybe it's from the occasional use of a riding sail, maybe it's simply good fortune, maybe it's from a combination of all of the above, but we tend to lie quietly, and do very little yawing/sheering/veering or charging about, putting shock loading on the rode. Yup, all of that!

See above in red. If I were in an area with strong blasts from several dirrections (have been), I'd be lying to V-anchors. It's not hard to do with practice (testing anchors has given me lots of practice in V-anchoring so that I can winch anchors against a stationary boat) and is far more relaxing.

 

[KINGFISHER 8]

What else should he be doing?

Well said , somebody went to a lot of trouble for our benefit .... Whatever the guy had done and however interesting and useful it was there's always a keyboard warrior who'll come out from under a rock to slag him off. Presumably it's the anonymity! ......

 

[NormanS]

See above in red. If I were in an area with strong blasts from several dirrections (have been), I'd be lying to V-anchors. It's not hard to do with practice (testing anchors has given me lots of practice in V-anchoring so that I can winch anchors against a stationary boat) and is far more relaxing.

Yes, I do the same. There's a lot more to successful anchoring than simply choosing an anchor. ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Yes, I do the same. There's a lot more to successful anchoring than simply choosing an anchor. ?

And here is where you hit the nail right on its head ,
Nearly all the grounding/ dragging we seen over the years had nothing to do with the anchor , more to do with the way it was used.
We looked at one the end of last season , a very nice 45 foot yacht still with its anchor and scope out while listing on the beach , sitting at the end of the chain was a spade , the amount of scope he had out would had only covered what he needed if he anchored a two boat length from where he was now laying .

 

[Adios]

And here is where you hit the nail right on its head ,
Nearly all the grounding/ dragging we seen over the years had nothing to do with the anchor , more to do with the way it was used.
We looked at one the end of last season , a very nice 45 foot yacht still with its anchor and scope out while listing on the beach , sitting at the end of the chain was a spade , the amount of scope he had out would had only covered what he needed if he anchored a two boat length from where he was now laying .

I went for a cruise with a marina neighbour where we anchored overnight on the Ore in Suffolk. I didn't realise how inexperienced he was at anchoring and I didn't notice when he let the anchor rode out "until it touched the bottom and a bit more". Got away with it because it was calm and ebbing and we were back up in the cockpit eating breakfast when the tide came back in and took us up the river with the anchor hanging.

 

[Neeves]

I went for a cruise with a marina neighbour where we anchored overnight on the Ore in Suffolk. I didn't realise how inexperienced he was at anchoring and I didn't notice when he let the anchor rode out "until it touched the bottom and a bit more". Got away with it because it was calm and ebbing and we were back up in the cockpit eating breakfast when the tide came back in and took us up the river with the anchor hanging.

I think many of us, yes I have my hand up, who learn by our mistakes - most of the time we get away with it (as you did at breakfast). But you do not forget lessons like that!

We also used (tested) our Excel in thin mud, just down wind of an Oyster farm. We were only there for the night, waiting to slip. A 55 knot front powered down the channel in which we were anchored. We saw it coming and had foul weather gear on, instruments on and engines running (how I wished the props were clean - we were sheduled to anti foul the next day. Visibility disappeared as the rain and wind arrived and we were slowly driven down the channel. The Excel was simply dragging through the soup (it seemed to have the consistency and beauty of used engine oil). Underlying the mud was clean silica sand (common down Australia's east coast) and as we neared the bank the mud layer thinned out and the anchor bit/caught and we stopped moving. We've never bothered with the Excel in thin mud since but standard practice is a Fortress FX 37, hand deployed. Later Fortress did their Chesapeake mud tests (but did not test an Excel) - and had similar results to our experience with most other anchors they tested. Soupy mud is the only seabed I can think of where a big anchor is needed - surface area wins! A bit later we were in Tasmania waiting to sit out a forecast storm and anchored in thin mud just off the mouth of the Gordon River (delightful area) (with the Fortress that we had powered set). A 45' Swan came and anchored nearby and surprise ,surprise could not get their CQR to hold - they went off and tied to a tree. They invited us to dinner and we exposed our secret technique (knowledge is of little value if it is not shared). The forecast storm never materialised.

Jonathan

I should have added my mantra.

All anchors are a compromise, there is no perfect anchor. Don't be complacent nor lazy if in doubt change the anchor. Adding a Fortress to your quiver of anchors is not expensive and deploying from the bow is really not a hardship - most anchors don't work in thin soupy mud (and if you deploy a Fortress - set the fluke at 45 degrees) but some other anchors don't work too well in weed or pebbles/cobbles/cloying seabeds and your security is compromised if the anchorage is subject to randomly directed gusts - think of setting in a 'V'.

Steve/Panope recommendations of Excel and Spade has my approval - underlined as they have been our choice for over a decades, long before Steve became active.

And if the anchor has no independent testing, no hold data, minimum consumer feedback - wonder why and hold back investing money. If it turns out to be a really good anchor - it will be mentioned, if its a lemon it might take time for that to filter through as the reasons for its lemon flavour might take time to quantify and people do seem reluctant, embarrassed, to admit they bought a 'sight unseen' lemon. I include Mantus M1 in this but also the Mantus M2, the Vulcan and the Epsilon. The M1 is a lost cause - but the others may turn out to be excellent and if you have to buy then the Epsilon currently has some decent credentials (Classification Society approval). Based on my limited testing the Viking seems a good buy - it may look like a M1 but its a totally different animal and can be used to replace a Fortress, as it is light (and currently cheap) but will out perform a seabed in many seabeds where the Fortress is weak, pebbly anchorages - just for example. We would carry one - but they do not fit on our bow roller.

The Mantus M1 is a classic example - hyped beyond belief - but has the hold of a Delta. Badly designed but had superb marketing - hype over substance. and as I said no-one wants to accept they were conned into buying a lemon.

J

 

[Neeves]

Yes, I do the same. There's a lot more to successful anchoring than simply choosing an anchor. ?

But you do need to have a choice if you are going to choose for different situations.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Well said , somebody went to a lot of trouble for our benefit .... Whatever the guy had done and however interesting and useful it was there's always a keyboard warrior who'll come out from under a rock to slag him off. Presumably it's the anonymity! ......

So easy to be an expert when you are anonymous and don't bother to support your statements.

Steve/Panope does go to a huge amount of effort, the editing of the videos is a career in itself. He does not hide behind anonymity - everyone knows who and where he is.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

But you do need to have a choice if you are going to choose for different situations.

Jonathan

I carry three anchors, all of roughly the same capabilities, so I do have a choice. Woops! Sorry little Danforth, used for the dinghy - I'm not forgetting your valuable contribution. So that's four.