Anchoring : Who's liable for damage?

[TradewindSailor]

Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Occasionally I get complaints from other yachts in the anchorage that I am anchored too close. I have a catamaran ... which of course is more liable to be effected by the wind than the current.

Last night one such yachtsman shouted at me from the bow of his boat .... that must have been at least 80 feet off my transom ... that I was too close and must move, if I didn't he would hold me liable for any damage.

It's true that he was already in place when I anchored, but I made sure my anchor was well dug in, and that there was about 2 boat lengths between us when out rodes were stretched out in the current.

There is often a wind against current effect here and with current running at up to 2 knots it can result in some interesting dances. We're in about 5m of water.

There is certainly not enough room in the anchorage for all boats to have anchoring circles that do not interfere with others.

I can't find any advice on liability, but am I correct in assuming that both boats are equally liable .... unless one can prove that the other has acted in a reckless way? It seems to me that if one perceives a danger and the other doesn't agree, the one that perceives the danger should act to minimise that danger if that was possible, with or without the assistance of the other party.

This particular yachtsmen had his helm over so that it became difficult to predict how his boat would lie in the current. Why would he do this?

By the way .... we never came closer than 80 feet during the past 36 hrs.

Any comments?

 

[shmoo]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

I can see an argument that it is the duty of the second (or last) arriving boat to anchor in a way that avoids contact with the other(s) already at the anchorage. If you accept this then that boat would carry the liability.

Any other approach would mean that the second boat could anchor too close to the first, and place a duty on the first to move, which would be absurd.

 

[starboard]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

If a vessel is already at anchor leave enough distance that both you and the other vessel will be happy with.....I get really pished off when I drop the hook in a tight spot then someone else comes and anchors only metres away not realising that I use both chain and rope and therefore tend to swing around in a differant fasion from yachts using chain alone.....dont forget every vessel will respond in a differant manner to both wind and tide so allowances must be made for that..................at the end of the day its just good plain seamanship but at times | am affraid I see little of that!!!

 

[Bilgediver]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

It's true that he was already in place when I anchored, but I made sure my anchor was well dug in, and that there was about 2 boat lengths between us when out rodes were stretched out in the current.

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I am not surprised he shouted at you...I think most others would too!!!!!!! You have made absolutely no allowance for anything going wrong including the boat ahead dragging.

As others have said you would be held responsible if there was a problem. You should try to leave enough space that there will be no contact in the event both boats do not swing together!

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

It would certainly seem logical that the one who anchors second would be liable. Trying to enforce that between two boats of different flags in the waters of a third country would be difficult.

I was in a similar situation anchored at Funchal when I was nervous about how close I had anchored to other boats. A French cat anchored between the nearest boat and me and refused to move even after he collided with us and knocked a hole in our topsides. I saw no way to get redress so decided to push off. There was a great temptation to take childish revenge.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

I once chose to leave the anchorage at Eigg when some prat anchored just ahead of us and then left his boat unattended, clearly heading for a B&B for the night! When the tide changed and we were clearly in danger of being pushed over his transom I decided that a night at sea would be much easier for everyone.

 

[johnalison]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

2 boat-lengths sounds a bit skimpy except as a lunch-stop in settled conditions. I agree that no liability should rest with the first arrival, except as percieved by insurers, and that the first boat may use whatever scope or tackle it wishes. In the past we have had to advise newcomers that we were lying to two anchors, which was our habit in places like Orford or the Butley, and therefore wouldn't swing to our expected scope. In those days this was always accepted as reasonable and I can't ever remember any ill feeling resulting.

The first time we ever had a problem was when I pointed out to a gentleman anchored too close in wind-against-tide and he replied that he was perfectly entitled to anchor there as he always anchored there on Sundays!

 

[Chrusty1]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

"The first time we ever had a problem was when I pointed out to a gentleman anchored too close in wind-against-tide and he replied that he was perfectly entitled to anchor there as he always anchored there on Sundays! "

You have to smile though..............don't you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[oldharry]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

[ QUOTE ]


***************************************************

I am not surprised he shouted at you...I think most others would too!!!!!!! You have made absolutely no allowance for anything going wrong including the boat ahead dragging.

As others have said you would be held responsible if there was a problem. You should try to leave enough space that there will be no contact in the event both boats do not swing together!

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly you havent sailed on the South Coast! East Head at the turn of the tide at 2.00am on a Bank Holiday saturday can be absolute mayhem - thats why I never anchor there overnight! 2 boats length - why, you would get at least 3 others anchoring in that space!

Add in a couple of local sailing schools (not at 2.00am!), and several dinghy racing fleets all tacking through the anchorage - then OPs complainant demanding 80 feet space round him would be having a nervous breakdown - and that would be by 11.00am on a busy weekend! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[kengill]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

So Lets see, 2 knots of current is about 1.03 metres per second and you were about 24 metres away. so lets say your anchor had a problem and you were below decks having a well earned gin - that a bit less than 24 seconds to realise something has gone wrong - swivel failed? shackle failed? other boat raising his anchor and snagging your rode?


How quickly will you be on deck to address the problem?

I quickly learnt that two boat lengths is a ridiculously short distance to leave between boats unless you're planning to do it as a raft.

Regarding having the helm over when anchored. Some skippers do it as a courtesy to other boats when they've anchored in the channel and wish to keep out of the wayof other boats. Some may do it to reduce hunting, some may do it to move the boat into a locally sheltered patch of water to reduce the noise of ripples against the hull from disturbing their sleep.

 

[absit_omen]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

[ QUOTE ]
"The first time we ever had a problem was when I pointed out to a gentleman anchored too close in wind-against-tide and he replied that he was perfectly entitled to anchor there as he always anchored there on Sundays! "

You have to smile though..............don't you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Bet he had a Blue Ensign.

Incidentally - anyone know where I can get one, or should I just knock one up from some blue cloth?

 

[Richard10002]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

One of the first times I anchored as skipper was at P. Andraitx in Mallorca.

I did everything correct, moving several times as I wasnt happy with how close we were to other boats.

Anyway ... by about 6.30pm, we were surrounded by allcomers, close enough to pass the proverbial sugar over the rails.

To cap it all, we were the ones moved on by the police, and we had to spend the night outside the harbour.

Terrible place for anchoring... lots of weed, and far to close for comfort.

So the short answer is:


2 boat lengths? Luxury!!

When I were a lad........

 

[Toutvabien]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Anchoring is a funny one, from my wanderings there seem to be different cultural norms, American sailors seem to expect larger distances between yachts than Brits and French boats happily anchor on top of each other.

I have asked people anchoring after me to relocate when I feel that they are too close but what that constitutes would depend upon location and conditions. In Marin on Martinique on a typical day in season there are hundreds of boats anchored close to one another, 2 boat lengths would be a luxurious distance, but very few people drag and it all works well.

In more exposed anchorages such close proximity would be more stressful. I guess it also depends upon how seriously folk take their anchoring, we got very perplexed by an American charter yacht that repeatedly tried to anchor in front of us using 5 metres of chain in 4 metres of water, we knew the amount of chain from the very loud discussion between the helm and the crew on the foredeck relaying to the skipper how much chain they had let out, thankfully after three failed attempts they left the anchorage, only to be followed by another charter yacht that tied up to a mooring bouy and went ashore, the only problem was that the mooring bouy was only attached to 2 metres of rope, and had no connection to the sea bed at all. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Sgeir]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Perhaps some of these comments are tempered by experience in rivers where there is strong current as well as wind and tide. But, in a "normal" coastal anchorage, two boat lengths might be tight, but doable.

We sail in an area where there are very few harbours or marinas, and where most regular sailors, and visitors, will anchor overnight. That's the norm for most. In a popular west coast anchorage, such as Puilladobhrain, it would be rare event for anchored boats to be much further apart than that during the height of the sailing season.

As for things going wrong, well, you might have a point, but the chances are that half the time at anchor, both the skipper and crew will either be sound asleep or ashore. Unless of course everyone here maintains a 24 hour anchor watch.

And yes, we've dragged, and we've had boats hit us while they were at "at anchor". We even had one freshly anchored boat pass us at about two knots, only about three metres off our starboard, while the skipper was taking bearings with his hand held compass (towards the direction of the wind). /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Chrusty1]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The first time we ever had a problem was when I pointed out to a gentleman anchored too close in wind-against-tide and he replied that he was perfectly entitled to anchor there as he always anchored there on Sundays! "

You have to smile though..............don't you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Bet he had a Blue Ensign.

Incidentally - anyone know where I can get one, or should I just knock one up from some blue cloth?

[/ QUOTE ]

Blue Ensigns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Don't get me started on that subject you horrible little man!

Acshully, I just treat blue flaggers with contempt.

 

[wotayottie]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Liability would be decided in court and not on a forum, most probably by some be-wigged berk who doesnt know a transom from a tafrail. No way of predicting which way he will decide. But life's too short to worry about liability or to get involved in anchorage arguments. You were the late arrival - if your position worries someone else, its only manners to move. And ignorance to stay put.

 

[Toutvabien]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

We have had a few adventures too, I once met a very nice gentleman at about 3:30 am in the Stour when at LW with no wind our boats each swung in a different direction, resulting in us meeting with each of us wearing very little, but still able to maintain a sense of humour about it all.

 

[Chrusty1]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

[ QUOTE ]
Liability would be decided in court and not on a forum, most probably by some be-wigged berk who doesnt know a transom from a tafrail. No way of predicting which way he will decide. But life's too short to worry about liability or to get involved in anchorage arguments. You were the late arrival - if your position worries someone else, its only manners to move. And ignorance to stay put.

[/ QUOTE ]


Quite right!.............but why are you telling me?...........You aren't one of those blue flaggers are you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[mikeotteau]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

You should have shouted back at him - "If you dont like it you can always f*4k off !

And if he didnt like it he could have - You have left enough room in your opinion , if his opinion is different he is free to move and leave more room.
Someone shouting at me is the least likely way to get me to do something different - now someone reasonably asking me to reconsider something could well get me to leave a bit more room but how much more does he want - 80 feet is plenty.

If you worked on the time in seconds to realise something was wrong then get on deck then several miles might not be enough when youre asleep.

 

[boguing]

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

I've always adhered to 'last one in is liable'.

So when I'm not first I'll ask #1 where he thinks his anchor is and plan accordingly.

Snag is though, that I'm not happily anchored until I've checked it at 4 Kts backwards with severe bow dip. So dragging is not very likely; and gear failure almost impossible. So I know I'm okay, but he might (reasonably) question it.

So, although it's a bit of a privacy invasion, I'd always motor up and have the conversation before dropping rather than raised voices later.

Legal stuff is not relevant. No insurer is going to bother going down that route.