Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
A post it note - that's so old hat - I send myself an email attachment with my position marked on Google Earth.
Anchoring technique
- Thread starter fireball
- Start date
fireball
Well-Known Member
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Every meter???? Did you win the lottery?
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Only got 50m of chain - so 40m marked ... and they came in a packet of 40 for about a tenner ...
Every meter???? Did you win the lottery?
[/ QUOTE ]
Only got 50m of chain - so 40m marked ... and they came in a packet of 40 for about a tenner ...
fireball
Well-Known Member
Email attachment - that's old hat - SWMBO updates her facebook profile with our position using her iPhone ....
Tranona
Well-Known Member
If you have a Lofrans Cayman like my 37 the clutch is the spiked wheel on the side. Probably seized through lack of use. It is just a simple cone which does not seem to wear, although I take Refuellers point that overuse and regular snubbing could cause wear..
We normally use the reverse motor as SWMBO feels more comfortable controlling that. However as our anchoring is mostly laying chain in a straight line up to a quay in relatively shallow water, speed only becomes a problem when you are dealing with cross winds.
The hooks on Gandy's post are great. Every chandler worth his salt stocks them. Best made up on permanent strops, and if I were anchoring in tidal waters I would have two - the longer one for where swinging and snubbing is expected.
We normally use the reverse motor as SWMBO feels more comfortable controlling that. However as our anchoring is mostly laying chain in a straight line up to a quay in relatively shallow water, speed only becomes a problem when you are dealing with cross winds.
The hooks on Gandy's post are great. Every chandler worth his salt stocks them. Best made up on permanent strops, and if I were anchoring in tidal waters I would have two - the longer one for where swinging and snubbing is expected.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Not just to refueller.
I remember J D Sleightholm, of blessed memory, ridiculing a "Pusher-up of ropes". I suspect he would have thought exactly the same of a "Pusher-down of chain".
I can see no reason for using power to achieve something which gravity can do better. The hand operated cone clutch on a properly designed electric anchor winch is perfectly capable of controlling the chain's speed of descent. Think back to when we used to have manually operated winches, - did we wind the chain out by hand? You bet we didn't.
I remember J D Sleightholm, of blessed memory, ridiculing a "Pusher-up of ropes". I suspect he would have thought exactly the same of a "Pusher-down of chain".
I can see no reason for using power to achieve something which gravity can do better. The hand operated cone clutch on a properly designed electric anchor winch is perfectly capable of controlling the chain's speed of descent. Think back to when we used to have manually operated winches, - did we wind the chain out by hand? You bet we didn't.
fireball
Well-Known Member
yer - but mine hasn't got a spiked wheel /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif further investigation required!!
Angele
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ah - so perhaps I should lower the chain a bit slower then!!
I'm looking for a chain hook - but the chain we've got is short link so you can only get a 6mm shackle pin through - so not sure what to do ... as I said - lunch stops only so far so not much bother, but I do want to get it sorted before hols!
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If you are only talking about lunch stops in the Solent do you really need to bother about a hook or snubber? I never do for a short stop. I just make sure I anchor somewhere sheltered.
When dropping the anchor I release the gypsy (on mine that means half a turn on the windlass with a winch handle) and let gravity do the trick until I have a 1.5-2x scope. My helmsmen then sticks her into reverse and I slowly pay out more as the chain rises and the anchor digs in (using either gravity or the windlass) until I get to my desired ratio.
Using gravity achieves two things. Firstly it doesn't use battery power. Secondly it get the anchor onto the seabed much more quickly that using power. Means your bow doesn't have time to blow off.
Ah - so perhaps I should lower the chain a bit slower then!!
I'm looking for a chain hook - but the chain we've got is short link so you can only get a 6mm shackle pin through - so not sure what to do ... as I said - lunch stops only so far so not much bother, but I do want to get it sorted before hols!
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If you are only talking about lunch stops in the Solent do you really need to bother about a hook or snubber? I never do for a short stop. I just make sure I anchor somewhere sheltered.
When dropping the anchor I release the gypsy (on mine that means half a turn on the windlass with a winch handle) and let gravity do the trick until I have a 1.5-2x scope. My helmsmen then sticks her into reverse and I slowly pay out more as the chain rises and the anchor digs in (using either gravity or the windlass) until I get to my desired ratio.
Using gravity achieves two things. Firstly it doesn't use battery power. Secondly it get the anchor onto the seabed much more quickly that using power. Means your bow doesn't have time to blow off.
fireball
Well-Known Member
No - I don't really need a hook for lunchstops - but I do intend to anchor for a bit longer than just lunch!!
Not worried about battery power as (and you seem to do the same) the engine is running - hence charge going to the batteries ... and going down don't use much as there is no weight to pull - so it is only taking the brake off!!
I think I'm going to have to be a bit more patient - it could be the CQR type anchor - but I'm loathed to pay £500 for a Rocna!!
Not worried about battery power as (and you seem to do the same) the engine is running - hence charge going to the batteries ... and going down don't use much as there is no weight to pull - so it is only taking the brake off!!
I think I'm going to have to be a bit more patient - it could be the CQR type anchor - but I'm loathed to pay £500 for a Rocna!!
Angele
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Not worried about battery power as (and you seem to do the same) the engine is running - hence charge going to the batteries ... and going down don't use much as there is no weight to pull - so it is only taking the brake off!!
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I think you will be surprised how much power it takes to use the windlass.
Before using my current gravity technique, I once dropped the hook under engine with two domestic batteries that were more or less knackered (I didn't know it at the time, but 50% of the electrolyte had been boiled away by an overenthusiastic battery charger).
The power coming from the alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass and it was only when I used the "link all" switch to bring in the engine starter battery that I had success.
From that I deduced that the current drawn by the windlass is greater than the alternator's output. I think the windlass is rated 1500W. I make that 125 Amps on full whack. Ok, dropping it will be much less than full power, but could well be more than the 50 Amp produced by the alternator.
Why start your time at anchor with domestic batteries that are already below full charge?
Not worried about battery power as (and you seem to do the same) the engine is running - hence charge going to the batteries ... and going down don't use much as there is no weight to pull - so it is only taking the brake off!!
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you will be surprised how much power it takes to use the windlass.
Before using my current gravity technique, I once dropped the hook under engine with two domestic batteries that were more or less knackered (I didn't know it at the time, but 50% of the electrolyte had been boiled away by an overenthusiastic battery charger).
The power coming from the alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass and it was only when I used the "link all" switch to bring in the engine starter battery that I had success.
From that I deduced that the current drawn by the windlass is greater than the alternator's output. I think the windlass is rated 1500W. I make that 125 Amps on full whack. Ok, dropping it will be much less than full power, but could well be more than the 50 Amp produced by the alternator.
Why start your time at anchor with domestic batteries that are already below full charge?
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The power coming from the alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass and it was only when I used the "link all" switch to bring in the engine starter battery that I had success.
From that I deduced that the current drawn by the windlass is greater than the alternator's output. I think the windlass is rated 1500W. I make that 125 Amps on full whack. Ok, dropping it will be much less than full power, but could well be more than the 50 Amp produced by the alternator.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking seems logical but is not in fact correct.
The power for the windlass comes not from the alternator but from the battery it is connected to, which BTW needs to be one that has high CCA (cold cranking amps) like a starter battery type although a large deep cycle or dual purpose will do. The alternator is charging the battery which in your case you have said was dead so the alternator output was being sucked up by that. By linking in the engine battery you gave the windlass what it wanted in the form of some CCA oomph.
To further convince you, we too have a 1500w windlass but it has a trip rated at just 80A, so never gets near the 125A you suggest in practice.
Finally unless your engine was running above normal tickover when using the windlass, the alternator output produced was nowhere near it's quoted capacity. This is something many forget when 'charging' batteries on a mooring with the engine just at tickover.
Using the windlass under power to lower the anchor uses very little battery capacity. Capacity is a function of both power AND time so 30 seconds even at 80A (which it isn't anywhere near) would only take 2/3rds Ah out of the battery LESS the contribution from the alternator, even at tickover.
[ QUOTE ]
Why start your time at anchor with domestic batteries that are already below full charge
[/ QUOTE ]
Well actually you should ideally be using the engine battery for the windlass for the reasons given above rather than the domestics. The windlass motor is very possibly an adapted starter motor. Engine batteries should be always near 100% capacity because unless you have a dodgy motor, starting the engine takes very little capacity that is replaced very quickly anyway.
For me, I prefer to power the anchor down because using the clutch it tends to drop it too slowly to start with as the weight isn't there to overcome the initial friction or inertia, then drops it all in a rush as the weight of chain and anchor takes effect. It is different once the anchor is on the bottom and the boat slowly drifting back, but then you might as well finish the way you started with fingers on buttons.
The power coming from the alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass and it was only when I used the "link all" switch to bring in the engine starter battery that I had success.
From that I deduced that the current drawn by the windlass is greater than the alternator's output. I think the windlass is rated 1500W. I make that 125 Amps on full whack. Ok, dropping it will be much less than full power, but could well be more than the 50 Amp produced by the alternator.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking seems logical but is not in fact correct.
The power for the windlass comes not from the alternator but from the battery it is connected to, which BTW needs to be one that has high CCA (cold cranking amps) like a starter battery type although a large deep cycle or dual purpose will do. The alternator is charging the battery which in your case you have said was dead so the alternator output was being sucked up by that. By linking in the engine battery you gave the windlass what it wanted in the form of some CCA oomph.
To further convince you, we too have a 1500w windlass but it has a trip rated at just 80A, so never gets near the 125A you suggest in practice.
Finally unless your engine was running above normal tickover when using the windlass, the alternator output produced was nowhere near it's quoted capacity. This is something many forget when 'charging' batteries on a mooring with the engine just at tickover.
Using the windlass under power to lower the anchor uses very little battery capacity. Capacity is a function of both power AND time so 30 seconds even at 80A (which it isn't anywhere near) would only take 2/3rds Ah out of the battery LESS the contribution from the alternator, even at tickover.
[ QUOTE ]
Why start your time at anchor with domestic batteries that are already below full charge
[/ QUOTE ]
Well actually you should ideally be using the engine battery for the windlass for the reasons given above rather than the domestics. The windlass motor is very possibly an adapted starter motor. Engine batteries should be always near 100% capacity because unless you have a dodgy motor, starting the engine takes very little capacity that is replaced very quickly anyway.
For me, I prefer to power the anchor down because using the clutch it tends to drop it too slowly to start with as the weight isn't there to overcome the initial friction or inertia, then drops it all in a rush as the weight of chain and anchor takes effect. It is different once the anchor is on the bottom and the boat slowly drifting back, but then you might as well finish the way you started with fingers on buttons.
lw395
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to measure the current lowering the anchor, it should be quite small.
If you measure the voltage while lowering, if it is below 12.7 then the battery is discharging, above that the alternator is providing the current. I would expect a good alternator system to be doing the bulk of the lowering, with the battery providing the starting surge.
In the limit, it ought to be possible to recover energy from the falling anchor....
If you measure the voltage while lowering, if it is below 12.7 then the battery is discharging, above that the alternator is providing the current. I would expect a good alternator system to be doing the bulk of the lowering, with the battery providing the starting surge.
In the limit, it ought to be possible to recover energy from the falling anchor....
Angele
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Your thinking seems logical but is not in fact correct.
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I do not think I am incorrect, but I accept that numbers on both sides of the equation are smaller than the figures I quoted.
I did not say my batteries were dead, but that they were clearly holding relatively little charge. We still spent a whole night at anchor with them. Fridge, lights and anchor light.
The point I was trying to make is that the power coming from the engine alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass. My expeirment proves that you do need to draw power from a battery bank even if your engine is running and the anchor is being lowered.
In terms of which battery the power comes from I disagree. I want my engine start battery to do that and that only. I want to know that my starter battery has not been run so low by lifting the anchor that if it will start the engine.
I agree that an engine start type of battery would be more appropriate than a deep cycly sort as it can give the necessary oomph. In an ideal world we would have three banks of batteries. I don't so I am sticking with the way my (modern) boat manufacturer made it, and all other boats in its range, by using the domestic supply. I don't care if it shortens the lives of those batteries. At least I know if my engine won't start it isn't for lack of battery power.
Your thinking seems logical but is not in fact correct.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do not think I am incorrect, but I accept that numbers on both sides of the equation are smaller than the figures I quoted.
I did not say my batteries were dead, but that they were clearly holding relatively little charge. We still spent a whole night at anchor with them. Fridge, lights and anchor light.
The point I was trying to make is that the power coming from the engine alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass. My expeirment proves that you do need to draw power from a battery bank even if your engine is running and the anchor is being lowered.
In terms of which battery the power comes from I disagree. I want my engine start battery to do that and that only. I want to know that my starter battery has not been run so low by lifting the anchor that if it will start the engine.
I agree that an engine start type of battery would be more appropriate than a deep cycly sort as it can give the necessary oomph. In an ideal world we would have three banks of batteries. I don't so I am sticking with the way my (modern) boat manufacturer made it, and all other boats in its range, by using the domestic supply. I don't care if it shortens the lives of those batteries. At least I know if my engine won't start it isn't for lack of battery power.
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I did not say my batteries were dead, but that they were clearly holding relatively little charge. We still spent a whole night at anchor with them. Fridge, lights and anchor light.
[/ QUOTE ]
You said 'they were more or less knackered'.
We run a big 200 litre fridge 24/7 and all the conveniences and even without using our wind and solar panels can last 3 days without charging or the battery volts dropping below my personal 'limit' figure of 12.4v.
[ QUOTE ]
The point I was trying to make is that the power coming from the engine alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass. My expeirment proves that you do need to draw power from a battery bank even if your engine is running and the anchor is being lowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
You missed my point. The alternator isn't running the windlass, not unless you disconnected the battery (DON'T do it, just imagine it!), the alternator is under the control of it's regulator and is trying to recharge the battery. The battery will only accept a percentage of the alternator output depending just how flat it really is and will never be likely to be asked to produce anything like it's rated output. Anyway nobody said lunch was free, the windlass will use some capacity (amps used x time used for) but this will very quickly be replaced by the alternator even at tickover whilst you are attaching a snubber and walking back to the cockpit!
[ QUOTE ]
In terms of which battery the power comes from I disagree. I want my engine start battery to do that and that only. I want to know that my starter battery has not been run so low by lifting the anchor that if it will start the engine.
[/ QUOTE ]
If your engine battery is correctly sized it loses very little capacity (again high amps but x very brief time) whilst starting the engine. If you start the engine before using the windlass you would not have a problem anyway, it is already running! In any case as you said you do have a means of linking in the domestics if push came to shove which it never should. Our engine battery in fact is 120Ah but with very high CCA, in fact we could start the engine with one under half that size.
[ QUOTE ]
I am sticking with the way my (modern) boat manufacturer made it, and all other boats in its range, by using the domestic supply. I don't care if it shortens the lives of those batteries. At least I know if my engine won't start it isn't for lack of battery power.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pity they were not modern enough to read the windlass installation instructions! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Who is the builder BTW? Frequently things like windlasses are options added by the dealer after delivery rather than the builder.
I did not say my batteries were dead, but that they were clearly holding relatively little charge. We still spent a whole night at anchor with them. Fridge, lights and anchor light.
[/ QUOTE ]
You said 'they were more or less knackered'.
We run a big 200 litre fridge 24/7 and all the conveniences and even without using our wind and solar panels can last 3 days without charging or the battery volts dropping below my personal 'limit' figure of 12.4v.
[ QUOTE ]
The point I was trying to make is that the power coming from the engine alternator was insufficient to turn the windlass. My expeirment proves that you do need to draw power from a battery bank even if your engine is running and the anchor is being lowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
You missed my point. The alternator isn't running the windlass, not unless you disconnected the battery (DON'T do it, just imagine it!), the alternator is under the control of it's regulator and is trying to recharge the battery. The battery will only accept a percentage of the alternator output depending just how flat it really is and will never be likely to be asked to produce anything like it's rated output. Anyway nobody said lunch was free, the windlass will use some capacity (amps used x time used for) but this will very quickly be replaced by the alternator even at tickover whilst you are attaching a snubber and walking back to the cockpit!
[ QUOTE ]
In terms of which battery the power comes from I disagree. I want my engine start battery to do that and that only. I want to know that my starter battery has not been run so low by lifting the anchor that if it will start the engine.
[/ QUOTE ]
If your engine battery is correctly sized it loses very little capacity (again high amps but x very brief time) whilst starting the engine. If you start the engine before using the windlass you would not have a problem anyway, it is already running! In any case as you said you do have a means of linking in the domestics if push came to shove which it never should. Our engine battery in fact is 120Ah but with very high CCA, in fact we could start the engine with one under half that size.
[ QUOTE ]
I am sticking with the way my (modern) boat manufacturer made it, and all other boats in its range, by using the domestic supply. I don't care if it shortens the lives of those batteries. At least I know if my engine won't start it isn't for lack of battery power.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pity they were not modern enough to read the windlass installation instructions! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Who is the builder BTW? Frequently things like windlasses are options added by the dealer after delivery rather than the builder.
Angele
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Who is the builder BTW? Frequently things like windlasses are options added by the dealer after delivery rather than the builder.
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Builder is Dufour. Windlass (and hence all associated wiring) was factory fitted - part of the basic spec and not even optional. The battery link all switch was a dealer fit option that I specified just to be safe. It is not part of the base spec.
Sorry, but I'm sticking to my principle of one battery for the engine only. Domestics for everything else.
In the first instance I still think that using gravity is better for dropping the hook if you have that option rather than the windlass. Even if the power consumption point is, as you maintain, immaterial it gets the anchor on the seabed in a fraction of the time that it takes the windlass to do it.
Who is the builder BTW? Frequently things like windlasses are options added by the dealer after delivery rather than the builder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Builder is Dufour. Windlass (and hence all associated wiring) was factory fitted - part of the basic spec and not even optional. The battery link all switch was a dealer fit option that I specified just to be safe. It is not part of the base spec.
Sorry, but I'm sticking to my principle of one battery for the engine only. Domestics for everything else.
In the first instance I still think that using gravity is better for dropping the hook if you have that option rather than the windlass. Even if the power consumption point is, as you maintain, immaterial it gets the anchor on the seabed in a fraction of the time that it takes the windlass to do it.