damo
Well-Known Member
If they were hung on your boat they should say "T/T Snow Petrel" /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Anchoring charges - legal?
- Thread starter damo
- Start date
Talbot
Well-Known Member
Beaulieu has the legal right to charge for anchoring - which is one of the reasons I stopped going there.
Clyde_Wanderer
Well-Known Member
Reading these posts on anchoring charges and harbour dues.
What gives them the right to charge in waters outside the limits of the harbour walls/breakwaters etc?
And how can they charge under 'harbour dues? as there is no maintenance on an anchorage so what exactly is the charge for.
It is my opinion that if folk will pay, then these places will jump on the band wagon and start charging even more, if everyone refused to pay then they would eventually abolish the charges.
I for one will never pay for anchoring anywhere, and he who asks for my hard earned dosh for droping my hook on the sea bed will be told to sling his hook in not so many polite words.
Problem is we in this country just sit back and take any [--word removed--] which is throwen at us, just like we have done with rising fuel prices etc.
What gives them the right to charge in waters outside the limits of the harbour walls/breakwaters etc?
And how can they charge under 'harbour dues? as there is no maintenance on an anchorage so what exactly is the charge for.
It is my opinion that if folk will pay, then these places will jump on the band wagon and start charging even more, if everyone refused to pay then they would eventually abolish the charges.
I for one will never pay for anchoring anywhere, and he who asks for my hard earned dosh for droping my hook on the sea bed will be told to sling his hook in not so many polite words.
Problem is we in this country just sit back and take any [--word removed--] which is throwen at us, just like we have done with rising fuel prices etc.
bilbobaggins
N/A
As we are regularly reminded on these pages, a published/ticketed price for goods or service is 'an invitation to treat'. Neither party is bound by that published info, and can enter into negotiations over the nature of the goods/service offered for supply, and the price.
So I suggest that, whenever the scruffy Summer-Strine scrote in a harbour launch accosts you next, while you are busy and stressed trying to secure to the seabed within Salcombe's creeks, then you invite him to bring to you his management representative who has powers to negotiate on price, negotiate all morning for all it's worth, then claim you are 'anchoring due to press of weather and to effect essential safety repairs', send him on his way, and await results.
Remember that you can prevent all and any 'visitors' clambering onto your vessel without giving reason, save only those properly empowered by The Crown under the various Acts - Customs, Terrorism, PACE, etc. Those do not include Salcombe Harbour employees, who regularly 'can't be bothered' to carry or display any legitimate form of authorisation or identity. Let no-one onto your boat without a scrutinised warrant card!
It will cost them far more - in unrecoverable admin costs, lost revenues, and adverse publicity - to bring an action against you, than you to defend it in a Small Claims Court.
So I suggest that, whenever the scruffy Summer-Strine scrote in a harbour launch accosts you next, while you are busy and stressed trying to secure to the seabed within Salcombe's creeks, then you invite him to bring to you his management representative who has powers to negotiate on price, negotiate all morning for all it's worth, then claim you are 'anchoring due to press of weather and to effect essential safety repairs', send him on his way, and await results.
Remember that you can prevent all and any 'visitors' clambering onto your vessel without giving reason, save only those properly empowered by The Crown under the various Acts - Customs, Terrorism, PACE, etc. Those do not include Salcombe Harbour employees, who regularly 'can't be bothered' to carry or display any legitimate form of authorisation or identity. Let no-one onto your boat without a scrutinised warrant card!
It will cost them far more - in unrecoverable admin costs, lost revenues, and adverse publicity - to bring an action against you, than you to defend it in a Small Claims Court.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sticking up for them as I don't like the way they carry on, but this could be a River authority with the power to do it just the same as the Beaulieu.
[/ QUOTE ]Beaulieu is unique as it is the only privately owned riverbed in the UK - it belongs to Lord Montague who therefore has the right to charge for use of his property, ie the stuff under water where your anchor digs in.
I'm not sticking up for them as I don't like the way they carry on, but this could be a River authority with the power to do it just the same as the Beaulieu.
[/ QUOTE ]Beaulieu is unique as it is the only privately owned riverbed in the UK - it belongs to Lord Montague who therefore has the right to charge for use of his property, ie the stuff under water where your anchor digs in.
Spars
Well-Known Member
Surely that must be for all River beds when a River Authority is in charge.
Cornishman
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
if I anchor up the river past Dittisham I'm not using a harbour, I'm anchoring up a bl**dy river so why should I pay?
[/ QUOTE ]
And how did you get to that idyllic anchorage? Perhaps you came down from Paignton on the steam railway? Or did you come from seaward using the lit leading marks, buoys etc to avoid the dangers when entering the river? You are using a harbour which has been established by law. Check your pilot book and you will find that the area under control of the Dart Harbour Commisioners on the Dart extends as far as Totnes.
While I am generally in support of the arguments used here about overcharging yours do not stack up.
if I anchor up the river past Dittisham I'm not using a harbour, I'm anchoring up a bl**dy river so why should I pay?
[/ QUOTE ]
And how did you get to that idyllic anchorage? Perhaps you came down from Paignton on the steam railway? Or did you come from seaward using the lit leading marks, buoys etc to avoid the dangers when entering the river? You are using a harbour which has been established by law. Check your pilot book and you will find that the area under control of the Dart Harbour Commisioners on the Dart extends as far as Totnes.
While I am generally in support of the arguments used here about overcharging yours do not stack up.
Cornishman
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Beaulieu is unique as it is the only privately owned riverbed in the UK
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite as there are parts of the River Exe which are similar
Beaulieu is unique as it is the only privately owned riverbed in the UK
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite as there are parts of the River Exe which are similar
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Beaulieu is unique as it is the only privately owned riverbed in the UK
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite as there are parts of the River Exe which are similar
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, bloody Powderham estate, must be the only place where if you buy a mooring part way through the season which has already had its mooring charges paid for that season then insist they are paid again!!
Daylight robbery!
[ QUOTE ]
Beaulieu is unique as it is the only privately owned riverbed in the UK
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite as there are parts of the River Exe which are similar
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, bloody Powderham estate, must be the only place where if you buy a mooring part way through the season which has already had its mooring charges paid for that season then insist they are paid again!!
Daylight robbery!
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Reading these posts on anchoring charges and harbour dues.
What gives them the right to charge in waters outside the limits of the harbour walls/breakwaters etc?
And how can they charge under 'harbour dues? as there is no maintenance on an anchorage so what exactly is the charge for.
[/ QUOTE ]
The area of the harbour usually has nothing to do with the harbour walls. For example, Newport harbour extends half way across the Severn to where it meets Bristol harbour coming in the other direction so in the Bristol channel you are continuously in someones harbour from Sparpness until you get west of the Holms. These areas are defined by bye law which is signed off by the secretary of state under various marine acts./
Sop the short anser is that the law gives them the right, and the harbour usually extends outside the walls.
Reading these posts on anchoring charges and harbour dues.
What gives them the right to charge in waters outside the limits of the harbour walls/breakwaters etc?
And how can they charge under 'harbour dues? as there is no maintenance on an anchorage so what exactly is the charge for.
[/ QUOTE ]
The area of the harbour usually has nothing to do with the harbour walls. For example, Newport harbour extends half way across the Severn to where it meets Bristol harbour coming in the other direction so in the Bristol channel you are continuously in someones harbour from Sparpness until you get west of the Holms. These areas are defined by bye law which is signed off by the secretary of state under various marine acts./
Sop the short anser is that the law gives them the right, and the harbour usually extends outside the walls.
jhr
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Surely that must be for all River beds when a River Authority is in charge.
[/ QUOTE ] Situation with Beaulieu is a bit different - it's the only privately owned tidal riverbed in the country (the seabed usually belongs to the monarch). This gives Lord Montague - or more correctly, Beaulieu Estates - the right to charge whatever they like when you anchor on their property.
This contrasts with the position at Newtown where, for years, the National Trust illegally demanded payment from everyone who anchored there (the moorings are maintained by them, so a different matter). It took threats of legal action from the RYA to stop them, and now they just ask for a donation instead.
Surely that must be for all River beds when a River Authority is in charge.
[/ QUOTE ] Situation with Beaulieu is a bit different - it's the only privately owned tidal riverbed in the country (the seabed usually belongs to the monarch). This gives Lord Montague - or more correctly, Beaulieu Estates - the right to charge whatever they like when you anchor on their property.
This contrasts with the position at Newtown where, for years, the National Trust illegally demanded payment from everyone who anchored there (the moorings are maintained by them, so a different matter). It took threats of legal action from the RYA to stop them, and now they just ask for a donation instead.
damo
Well-Known Member
Yeah I know it is a harbour area established by law, as they all are /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
In the case of the Dart the "harbour" is a natural feature with no hazards requiring nav aids to negotiate and was a refuge long before someone decided they could charge for it. The outer harbour at Ilfracombe is also a natural anchorage, and is open to seaward.
I think that harbour dues are appropriate if you are using the aids and facilities, and there has been construction to create that refuge.
Barry has a sheltered harbour and doesn't ask for a fee, Cardiff Bay is an amazing artificial harbour and doesn't ask for dues, you can anchor just about anywhere in Milford Haven and noone comes to ask for a cheque etc etc
It's not fair I tell you /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
In the case of the Dart the "harbour" is a natural feature with no hazards requiring nav aids to negotiate and was a refuge long before someone decided they could charge for it. The outer harbour at Ilfracombe is also a natural anchorage, and is open to seaward.
I think that harbour dues are appropriate if you are using the aids and facilities, and there has been construction to create that refuge.
Barry has a sheltered harbour and doesn't ask for a fee, Cardiff Bay is an amazing artificial harbour and doesn't ask for dues, you can anchor just about anywhere in Milford Haven and noone comes to ask for a cheque etc etc
It's not fair I tell you /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Hey...Dan....job for you...
If a common approach between sailors is not established then your activity is going to get very much more expensive. What does the RYA have to say about it? What is the legal situation?
If I am going to be charged for anchoring then no way am I going to visit these areas. That means less money spent in local restaurants; no visits to chandleries etc. There are sufficient places to visit where there is no charge. However the article written by a lawyer plainly stated that most of these charges were illegal.
It would be nice therefore if Yachting Monthly researched the subject with legal help and gave a definitive opinion in an updated article.
John
If a common approach between sailors is not established then your activity is going to get very much more expensive. What does the RYA have to say about it? What is the legal situation?
If I am going to be charged for anchoring then no way am I going to visit these areas. That means less money spent in local restaurants; no visits to chandleries etc. There are sufficient places to visit where there is no charge. However the article written by a lawyer plainly stated that most of these charges were illegal.
It would be nice therefore if Yachting Monthly researched the subject with legal help and gave a definitive opinion in an updated article.
John
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
To be fair the Dart does provide some good facilities which would not be available if no charge were made. And the harbour authority staff are a friendly helpful bunch, and the charges are imho quite reasonable. It's one of my favourite places. Wish I was there now!
Cornishman
Well-Known Member
I was brought up to answer your last question with the following:
Whoever said life is fair?
Even Nulabor who bang on about fairness have not yet answered that one.
Whoever said life is fair?
Even Nulabor who bang on about fairness have not yet answered that one.
Searush
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I was brought up to answer your last question with the following:
Whoever said life is fair?
(cut)
[/ QUOTE ]
I have always told my kids to read their Birth Certificates carefully. There are no warranties, guaranties or protections written or implied. You are born & it is up to you to make the best of whatever opportunities/ skills you may spot or develop before you die. Your achievements & date of demise are all almost arbitrary!
Enjoy the challenge. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I was brought up to answer your last question with the following:
Whoever said life is fair?
(cut)
[/ QUOTE ]
I have always told my kids to read their Birth Certificates carefully. There are no warranties, guaranties or protections written or implied. You are born & it is up to you to make the best of whatever opportunities/ skills you may spot or develop before you die. Your achievements & date of demise are all almost arbitrary!
Enjoy the challenge. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
damo
Well-Known Member
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
No it ain't fair, but I'm still against being charged for anchoring on passage to wait for a tide or get some sleep /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
No it ain't fair, but I'm still against being charged for anchoring on passage to wait for a tide or get some sleep /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
graham
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If they were hung on your boat they should say "T/T Snow Petrel"
[/ QUOTE ]
Its not the size that counts ,its the way you use it... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
If they were hung on your boat they should say "T/T Snow Petrel"
[/ QUOTE ]
Its not the size that counts ,its the way you use it... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Slow_boat
Well-Known Member
Chargeing for anchoring is simply OUTRAGOUS!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Can't pay, Won't pay. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Can't pay, Won't pay. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surely that must be for all River beds when a River Authority is in charge.
[/ QUOTE ] Situation with Beaulieu is a bit different - it's the only privately owned tidal riverbed in the country (the seabed usually belongs to the monarch). This gives Lord Montague - or more correctly, Beaulieu Estates - the right to charge whatever they like when you anchor on their property.
This contrasts with the position at Newtown where, for years, the National Trust illegally demanded payment from everyone who anchored there (the moorings are maintained by them, so a different matter). It took threats of legal action from the RYA to stop them, and now they just ask for a donation instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
But at leat they don't abuse it. They only charge you £5 a night to anchor or be on a bouy. - compare with St Mawes - £30.
[ QUOTE ]
Surely that must be for all River beds when a River Authority is in charge.
[/ QUOTE ] Situation with Beaulieu is a bit different - it's the only privately owned tidal riverbed in the country (the seabed usually belongs to the monarch). This gives Lord Montague - or more correctly, Beaulieu Estates - the right to charge whatever they like when you anchor on their property.
This contrasts with the position at Newtown where, for years, the National Trust illegally demanded payment from everyone who anchored there (the moorings are maintained by them, so a different matter). It took threats of legal action from the RYA to stop them, and now they just ask for a donation instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
But at leat they don't abuse it. They only charge you £5 a night to anchor or be on a bouy. - compare with St Mawes - £30.