Anchor Swivel, which locktite?

dolabriform

dolabriform

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Hi All
I'm replacing my anchor soon, the current one has a decent swivel on it but is not seized.
Obviously I'm hoping I can reuse the swivel as there is no sign of wear on it, so presuming it hasn't been fitted with locktite red and a blow torch isn't needed to remove it, what would the learned panel recommend when I refit it?

a) Locktite blue & seizing wire?
b) Locktite red & seizing wire?
c) None of the above?

Thanks
 
Maybe not what you're asking, but what benefit does a swivel do for you? Presumably it's something to do with lifting your anchor, but unless the water that you sail in is as thick as treacle, the anchor will turn fine without introducing another potential point of failure in your rode.
 
NormanS said:
Maybe not what you're asking, but what benefit does a swivel do for you? Presumably it's something to do with lifting your anchor, but unless the water that you sail in is as thick as treacle, the anchor will turn fine without introducing another potential point of failure in your rode.
Click to expand...

You can save buying any loctite or seizing wire and sleep better if you define, for yourself, why you use a swivel and then overcome those issues a better way.

First up check there are no twists in the chain from gypsy to anchor, half a twist and your anchor will always come up - half a twist out. Check the hydrodynamics of your anchor - with water flow over anchors they are induced to turn as your yacht goes astern (or forward) as you retrieve your anchor. If your windlass is fast the half twist imposed by water flow will not have stableised by the time your anchor reaches the bow roller. If you have anchored and your yacht has turned frequently in the same direction due to wind or tide then the swivel will NOT remove the twists. But when you lift the anchor and it is freely suspended those twists will fall out - if you given them time.

I have tested swivels and none of them swivel under tension unless there are a significant number of twists. The mechanism of swivels is crude in the extreme (and unless you buy an expensive swivel) they are a weak point in the rode. If you have bought an expensive one, you probably don't need it - so sort out the issues, sell it (and sleep better).

How Well Do Swivels Reduce Twist? - Practical Sailor

Anchor Swivels: Caution Required - Practical Sailor

How to boomerang your anchor right back at you - MySailing.com.au

Tell us why you need a swivel and we may be able to help you with more focussed comment.


And out of interest - why are you replacing the anchor, it takes a lot to wear an anchor out!

Jonathan
 
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Neeves said:
Tell us why you need a swivel and we may be able to help you with more focussed comment.


And out of interest - why are you replacing the anchor, it takes a lot to wear an anchor out!

Jonathan
Click to expand...

Thanks Jonathon, I was going to put a swivel on as there is a Ultra on there already so I thought I'd reuse it. I've had an issue before with the chain kinking and not being able to get the anchor on the roller.

As to why, as per the other thread I have just bought a Vulcan to replace the generic delta copy that is currently on there.
 
Ultra swivels are well engineered - but why use it if you don't actually need it?

If its a recent Ultra swivel it 'clips' onto the shank end - are you sure the shank end has been designed to have a lever attached to it?

If you think about modern anchors one of the facets that all anchor makers have focussed on, well almost all, is to endow their anchor with a thin shank. That's why Peter Smith used an 800 MPa steel for his Rocna shank - he could make the shank thin without sacrificing strength (no need for the laughter to be that loud :) )

It has been recognised for years, decades, that the fluke is the device the does all the work and anything else is a bit of a hindrance, including the chain, the thickness of the shank, the shackle. If you want to get the best from your anchor you want the thinnest rode possible and the anchor maker has provided you with a thin shank - you negate all this by using a whopping big swivel.

On most modern anchors - as the anchor sets the toe of the anchor and the shank end bury together. As the fluke buries further it 'drags' the shank down with it. As the shank end progressively buries it pulls down chain. All this stuff that needs pulled down by the fluke hampers the burial of the anchor and the anchor rotates, the fluke buries more than the shank end, the fluke becomes less efficient (because it starts to flatten out) the tension angle has an increased uplift to it - and the swivel simply makes all this worse.

Now - why do you really want the swivel (worth a fortune on eBay :) ).


I accept that I paint a bleak picture but all these little things add up, maybe your chain is also a bit big (for the size of anchor) - its just something to think about. Basically - unless you have good reason, I'd try without the swivel

Jonathan
 
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dolabriform said:
Hi All
I'm replacing my anchor soon, the current one has a decent swivel on it but is not seized.
Obviously I'm hoping I can reuse the swivel as there is no sign of wear on it, so presuming it hasn't been fitted with locktite red and a blow torch isn't needed to remove it, what would the learned panel recommend when I refit it?

a) Locktite blue & seizing wire?
b) Locktite red & seizing wire?
c) None of the above?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Why would you use Loctite and seizing wire ?

I'd use Loktite blue.
 
To directly answer the question, I would prefer 272 (green) in this use rather than blue or red. And no locking wire.
Blue is designed to be easy to break free for fasteners that require removal. Green is a semi-permanent (i.e studlock) for fasteners that are infrequently removed. Red is the devils blood. Expect heat, more heat and swearing when you come to undo the fastener! ;)

Often overlooked, but if using loktite ensure the threads (male & female) are degreased thoroughly. Even "clean" SS may still have residue from the machining or polishing process and these lubricants do nothing to help a threadlocker do it's job.
 
I have used Loctite 242 on my Kong swivel and shackles for nearly 10 years now, never a problem. There are pages on the subject on my website. Seizing is not an option with a Kong's countersunk screw.

We much prefer to use a swivel following years of experimenting with alternatives, including no swivel at all. If it works for you, use one. If not, don't.
 
I can confirm that overly liberal use of a red Loctite especially on a small item with a long thread can be a nightmare to release. I used heat, the galley creme brûlée blow torch, and the longest spanners I have and it was a real struggle on a foredeck - you only make that mistake once.

Jonathan
 
Hi its obvious you cannot use seizing wire on a countersunk screw unless the screw is over long and a hole is drilled in the thread over hang and wire locked that way, not perfect but would do the job. My problem is after reading post #13 why create something that could be easily avoided, by using Monel seizing wire one snip with wire cutters job done no struggle. Simples
 
jim.howes said:
Hi its obvious you cannot use seizing wire on a countersunk screw unless the screw is over long and a hole is drilled in the thread over hang and wire locked that way, not perfect but would do the job. My problem is after reading post #13 why create something that could be easily avoided, by using Monel seizing wire one snip with wire cutters job done no struggle. Simples
Click to expand...

Post #13 refers to using the wrong type of Loctite, that's easily avoided, by using the correct type of Loctite.

It is not "easily avoided, by using Monel seizing wire ", because as you say "its obvious you cannot use seizing wire on a countersunk screw".
 
I've just had a look at a selection of Ultra swivel pictures (I've looked at the one with a flip device that locks over the shank) and as far as I can see there are 2 clevis pins, one for the chain (a 'rectangular' pin) and one for the anchor shank (not sure if its also rectangular). Both heads are recessed into the body of the swivel and I assume lock into the recess (they seem to have hex heads). The other end of these clevis pins seems to be a recessed sex bolt, the male portion, with a recessed Alan key head.

I'm not sure why the OP mentioned mousing wire - it would be impossible to use. The clevis pins are recessed, there is no hole through which to seize anything.

There is also nothing, apart from an Alan key recess, which looks to take a fairly small Alan key, to offer purchase so I'd be looking at a low strength Loctite as it would be too easy to damage the Alan key recess (the keys are easy to replace)

Definitely not mousing wire (unless I looked at the wrong model) definitely not red Loctite, I don't know which would be the best 'low' strength Loctite.

Jonathan
 
dolabriform said:
Hi All
I'm replacing my anchor soon, the current one has a decent swivel on it but is not seized.
Obviously I'm hoping I can reuse the swivel as there is no sign of wear on it, so presuming it hasn't been fitted with locktite red and a blow torch isn't needed to remove it, what would the learned panel recommend when I refit it?

a) Locktite blue & seizing wire?
b) Locktite red & seizing wire?
c) None of the above?

Thanks
Click to expand...
I'm a big fan of swivels (best thing since sliced bread) and has been pointed out before certain windlass like RC8 recommend them. If you have a Kong swivel Loctite blue is good - just remember to have a few links of chain between swivel and shackle attached to anchor. I have just finished a season with a Mantus shackle which despite all the naysayers worked a treat and seizing wire still in immaculate condition even after anchoring on rocks. Interestingly my Mantus shackle also acts as an anchor rightner so no more faffing around with that scenario. So no more chain twist and easy anchor stow!
 
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