geem
Well-Known Member
Try jumping off a bridge with a dyneema line instead of a bungee line and see how you get on with those loads?
Anchor setup for serious crusing - anchor size for 25 foot, 2 tons (4500 pounds) yachts
- Thread starter slawosz
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zoidberg
Well-Known Member
I just noted that one can get TWO 10kg Delta anchors for the price of ONE 10kg ROCNA, with £45 change to spare. ( ex Jimmy Green Marine )
BTW, I sold an unused 10kg Delta, then bought on here a nearly-new 15kg Spade plus a nearly-new 10kg Fortress Fx-16 for less than the 'JG' cost of a 10kg ROCNA. Go figure....
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
My Delta dragged three times in soft mud in a microburst storm, 50 knot gusts. I changed then to a Rocna. To be fair it has never seen the same conditions but I have always been happy with it. I had Deltas for 20+ years and until this incident was always happy with them.
doug748
Well-Known Member
If you are starting to get the dithers then a 9.5 Kg Super Excel from Jimmy Green could be the choice:
Sarca Excel Anchor - Galvanised | Sarca Anchor
Cheaper than the equivalent Rocna and always seems to score towards the top in terms of hold, resetting and construction (one Panope test did manage to bend a tip but in extremis).
However, way back in # 5, I (amongst others) suggested more modestly priced alternatives because in the real world people have spending limits and it is not always necessary to have the best tools in the world, only ones that will do the job.
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
That would save precisely £40 over the equivalent sized Rocna - Rocna Anchor - Galvanised
I know that I would certainly invest the extra £40.
The only real question is whether Rocna or spend a bit more for the Spade - Spade Anchor - Galvanised
But won’t go far wrong with the Rocna, which is pretty much the default currently for NW Scotland
slawosz
Well-Known Member
I wonder if it is correct analogy to the anchoring. In the end, the end force will be the same. I need to read more how anchor might behave differently during longer time of force being applied. It might be possible, that until catenary disappear, this would give anchor time to dig deeper. Oh, and you have always engine that can help reducing forces.
But in general, @geem your point is valid in sailing, especially when tethering to the solid anchor points.
Its once a lot of years purchase. Besides, Amazon sells them for 285. Its still 2 Epsilons.
Anyway, I am in my personal hell now
Anyway, I probably will be fine as:
With some reasoning, I think I will be happy with Epsilon. Also, I presume that most of the SHHP anchors are good, probably Rocna was one of first and got great reputation after people changed from some archaic anchors, that required bit more attention to set or so. Or using wrong amount of scope or technique - and when they got better anchor, they also educated themselfs about scope and anchoring and general and improved their technique - and praising the anchor for it.
Anyway, my Sadler 25 has little windage, comparing to similar yachts.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Good show.
The Rocna has manifested reset problems and the Spade is both poorly galvanized and tricky to repair. Variety is the spice of life but I don't think I would pay a premium for either.
Certainly would not ask the OP to pay top dollar for something that is flawed in a manner that cheaper alternatives are not.
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
Not sure it is true that “Rocna has manifested reset problems”, which seems to be from a specific test scenario, and has proven not to be the case in the real world. In the real world the Rocna has set much better than a Delta, and never had a reset problem for most people (ourselves included after perhaps 800+ uses)
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
...
The reset concerns on a Rocna might be very overstated. Lots of folks using them, including successful resets. This has resulted in one commentator removing their recommendation to use a Rocna. However, the number of reported failures to reset after a wind shift is not high from what I can tell by reading the various opinions across a number of forums. Chinese whispers now have the Rocna not reseting when the boat turns as if it is hard fact, truism, that is not supported by the many, many users. It is always a risk, for all anchors.
Practical Sailor's resetting test that both highlights a risk and demonstrates resetting of Rocna. Anchor Resetting Tests - Practical Sailor
The reset concerns on a Rocna might be very overstated. Lots of folks using them, including successful resets. This has resulted in one commentator removing their recommendation to use a Rocna. However, the number of reported failures to reset after a wind shift is not high from what I can tell by reading the various opinions across a number of forums. Chinese whispers now have the Rocna not reseting when the boat turns as if it is hard fact, truism, that is not supported by the many, many users. It is always a risk, for all anchors.
Practical Sailor's resetting test that both highlights a risk and demonstrates resetting of Rocna. Anchor Resetting Tests - Practical Sailor
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Boathook
Well-Known Member
Not my experience of my Rocna.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I have posted several photos showing my Rocna having rotated 180 degrees in windshifts, neither failing to reset nor dragging in the slightest. Some of these (and a Manson Supreme, a very similar anchor) are shown on my website in this article Oversize anchors – necessary?
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
the bungee analogy would apply when the boat is veering around in gusty winds. In smooth conditions, yes the boat will provide a steady force on the anchor, but one the boat starts to move, the acceleration of the bows times a factor of the displacement will be applied to the rode. That acceleration might be quite large (sudden jerk). That has two effects, one it dramatically increases the force on the anchor and two makes for an uncomfortable night. At the end of the night you want to have had a good sleep and wake where went to sleep - these two things are fundamentally all we ask of an anchor and rode. That is why many people use mixed rodes or snubbers. Too much chain on a mixed rode might be more trouble than it’s worth when you find a relatively shallow site (which is generally more sheltered)
noelex
Well-Known Member
As others have said, the Rocna “shuffles” well and is one of the better anchors for responding to changes of wind direction.
Panope's tests are great and he is to be congratulated for putting in the effort involved. Many of the results are spot on, but the test method has produced some results that do not reflect the real life performance. In particular, I would personally rate the Rocna as being much better and the Excel and CQR as significantly worse anchors than Panope’s results suggest.
To get a good indication of anchor performance you need to read many anchor tests, talk to owners especially those that anchor frequently, keep track of those boats that drag, and finally if you have the chance, observe how these anchors behave underwater.
Panope's tests are great and he is to be congratulated for putting in the effort involved. Many of the results are spot on, but the test method has produced some results that do not reflect the real life performance. In particular, I would personally rate the Rocna as being much better and the Excel and CQR as significantly worse anchors than Panope’s results suggest.
To get a good indication of anchor performance you need to read many anchor tests, talk to owners especially those that anchor frequently, keep track of those boats that drag, and finally if you have the chance, observe how these anchors behave underwater.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Anchors are a classic branch of the fashion industry, says he who's regular anchor is unfortunately no longer made.
I can honestly say that when it's really blowing a hoolie, I have never wished that I had a smaller or lighter anchor. ?
I can honestly say that when it's really blowing a hoolie, I have never wished that I had a smaller or lighter anchor. ?
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
In the past (pre the end of Brexit transition) I've bought a fair bit of kit from Jimmy Green (all my running rigging + a nooring bridle + lots of smaller bits) as it was invariably cheaper than here in France.
However, when I was looking to buy a Rocna (15kg), it was cheaper to buy locally.
Ancre Rocna
And with my loyalty card, I get an extra 5% off for every 300 Euro I spend.
geem
Well-Known Member
I have a slight variation on that. When it's blowing hard I never wish I had bought a cheaper anchor ?
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Here is some background reading for you, some of these articles might be behind a pay wall, some may have been removed from the appropriate web site.
The art of snubbing, in the nicest possible way - Mysailing
An Inquiry into Anchor Angles - Practical Sailor
Know how: Ground Tackle
How to: Dealing with Snatch Loads in an Anchorage
Anchor Snubber Tips
This makes Geem's post slightly more dramatic. The picture is in one of the articles but imagine if the young lady was attached by dyneema, not bungy. Its the same young lady, the same drop - the only difference is the tether - which do you think the young lady will notice more, or not? Now imagine that the securement point is your anchor, the tether is chain and the young lady is your yacht, and instead of dropping your yacht vertically - it is veering to wind bullets now replace the chain (or add in some elasticity) - lets call it a .......... snubber.
The removal of recommendation for Rocna, due to clogging, was a direct result of yachts ending up on beaches and the action was all under the auspices of Attainable Adventure Cruising or AAC to which many here (not me) are subscribers. Whether the recommendation is 'valid' and the frequency of disasters might be statistically low - there is no doubt a Rocna (and other concave anchors) can carry mud and the mud needs to be removed when the anchor is retrieved from a muddy seabed. Other anchors do not have this characteristic. The Practical Sailor article defines the issues.
Having used an Excel (and Spade) for almost 2 decades and having tested most of the other equivalent anchors I can confidently suggest that blind fold and most of the time you will not tell the difference in hold of Rocna, Spade, Excel, Supreme, Supreme, Kobra, Viking, Knox of the same weight (or physical size). They all set quickly and reliably and all have the same defects in weed. The difference is - some carry mud - read the articles you decide if this is an issue. Some may not fit on your bow roller, some are more (or less) expensive, some might have questionable manufacturing techniques or questionable use of metal (less HT steels in the shank - commonly reflected in being cheaper). Some may not be available near you. Most anchors are now made in China, though oddly this does not apply to my list as only Rocna and Kobra are made in China. I confess I have not tested a Epsilon, I actually have not seen one (but then I'm based in the nether regions of the world).
I would not buy the much lauded Mantus, see the article on anchor angles and I would only buy the Kobra, due to its poor shank, if my cash reserves were seriously depleted. I have questioned the performance of Mantus with Panope and its champion - and neither are willing to go on record and defend their conclusions - see the article on anchor angles. I think there is a serious and unanswered question mark over the Panope rating of Rocna (and rating of Mantus) - which puts ALL of the testing into question. As said, Rocna is well liked the Panope results do not reflect the reality.
We only use aluminium anchors, Excel, Spade and Fortress - 38'x 7t cat and the anchors weight 8kg each (the steel anchors of the same size weight 15kg (we have the steel versions and have not used them for at least a decade). We would use a Viking, made from high tensile steel - so saves weight - but it does not fit on our bow roller. Our cruising ground is the southern regions of Tasmania, neatly set in the middle of the Roaring Forties.
Here we are snug in Bramble Cove (named after HMS Bramble) SW Tasmania. The next land mass due west, the direction from which the weather systems arrive, of the location is Patagonia. The scenery is 'Scots' - trees are 6" high, there is no human habitation, there are no roads, there is no VHF coverage, no mobile phone coverage - you need reliable ground tackle. --- 6kg anchor, 6mm chain, good snubbers (bridle in our case).
Jonathan
The art of snubbing, in the nicest possible way - Mysailing
An Inquiry into Anchor Angles - Practical Sailor
Know how: Ground Tackle
How to: Dealing with Snatch Loads in an Anchorage
Anchor Snubber Tips
This makes Geem's post slightly more dramatic. The picture is in one of the articles but imagine if the young lady was attached by dyneema, not bungy. Its the same young lady, the same drop - the only difference is the tether - which do you think the young lady will notice more, or not? Now imagine that the securement point is your anchor, the tether is chain and the young lady is your yacht, and instead of dropping your yacht vertically - it is veering to wind bullets now replace the chain (or add in some elasticity) - lets call it a .......... snubber.
The removal of recommendation for Rocna, due to clogging, was a direct result of yachts ending up on beaches and the action was all under the auspices of Attainable Adventure Cruising or AAC to which many here (not me) are subscribers. Whether the recommendation is 'valid' and the frequency of disasters might be statistically low - there is no doubt a Rocna (and other concave anchors) can carry mud and the mud needs to be removed when the anchor is retrieved from a muddy seabed. Other anchors do not have this characteristic. The Practical Sailor article defines the issues.
Having used an Excel (and Spade) for almost 2 decades and having tested most of the other equivalent anchors I can confidently suggest that blind fold and most of the time you will not tell the difference in hold of Rocna, Spade, Excel, Supreme, Supreme, Kobra, Viking, Knox of the same weight (or physical size). They all set quickly and reliably and all have the same defects in weed. The difference is - some carry mud - read the articles you decide if this is an issue. Some may not fit on your bow roller, some are more (or less) expensive, some might have questionable manufacturing techniques or questionable use of metal (less HT steels in the shank - commonly reflected in being cheaper). Some may not be available near you. Most anchors are now made in China, though oddly this does not apply to my list as only Rocna and Kobra are made in China. I confess I have not tested a Epsilon, I actually have not seen one (but then I'm based in the nether regions of the world).
I would not buy the much lauded Mantus, see the article on anchor angles and I would only buy the Kobra, due to its poor shank, if my cash reserves were seriously depleted. I have questioned the performance of Mantus with Panope and its champion - and neither are willing to go on record and defend their conclusions - see the article on anchor angles. I think there is a serious and unanswered question mark over the Panope rating of Rocna (and rating of Mantus) - which puts ALL of the testing into question. As said, Rocna is well liked the Panope results do not reflect the reality.
We only use aluminium anchors, Excel, Spade and Fortress - 38'x 7t cat and the anchors weight 8kg each (the steel anchors of the same size weight 15kg (we have the steel versions and have not used them for at least a decade). We would use a Viking, made from high tensile steel - so saves weight - but it does not fit on our bow roller. Our cruising ground is the southern regions of Tasmania, neatly set in the middle of the Roaring Forties.
Here we are snug in Bramble Cove (named after HMS Bramble) SW Tasmania. The next land mass due west, the direction from which the weather systems arrive, of the location is Patagonia. The scenery is 'Scots' - trees are 6" high, there is no human habitation, there are no roads, there is no VHF coverage, no mobile phone coverage - you need reliable ground tackle. --- 6kg anchor, 6mm chain, good snubbers (bridle in our case).
Jonathan
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slawosz
Well-Known Member
Anchor ordered - Epsilon 6kg. Not that I plan to use it in extreme conditions (especially when my cruising plans changed) but it iss a reasonable choice I hope. Now I 'only' have to decide on chain length. 30 or 40. But its an easy choice, and I am glad I get out from rabbit hole of anchor. Its quite often like that for me when buying some equipment
Its nothing I cant imagine. I used to climb, in some seasons quite a lot and there is plenty of information and recently tests in youtube. 1 meter fall is enough to break dyneema (and cause serious injury if dyneema wont break). I still don't think from mechanics point of view its the same principle, but might give intuition. But climbing gear has advantage of being easily tested, anchores don't.
Its nothing I cant imagine. I used to climb, in some seasons quite a lot and there is plenty of information and recently tests in youtube. 1 meter fall is enough to break dyneema (and cause serious injury if dyneema wont break). I still don't think from mechanics point of view its the same principle, but might give intuition. But climbing gear has advantage of being easily tested, anchores don't.
That was my thinking after finally decided to click on 'add to basket' after starring at Epsilon for last few days. It sets - so it can't be all wrong - and testing methodology is probably not that good. I thing that veering, when happens, makes anchor move slightly and reset - with long pull it has no chance for it.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
If my boat was veering or yawing (other descriptions are available) all over the place, and exerting shock loads on my bow roller, instead of worrying whether my anchor was the most fashionable, or expensive available, I would be doing something to prevent the veering or yawing. I accept, of course, that this is more difficult for those with lightweight boats, maybe particularly multihulls, which tend to skitter about in puffs of wind. I am the fortunate owner of a relatively heavy ketch, with more windage aft than the equivalent size of sloop. I'm also prepared to rig a riding sail, if the conditions merit its use.
geem
Well-Known Member
We are also equipped with an even heavier and larger ketch and make full use of an excellent new generation anchor (albeit with useless galvanising) and a long nylon snubber. We never need a riding sail but have used the mizzen sheeted bar tight to combat swell reaching into an anchorage that would otherwise see us rolling. The mizzen acts as a damper to any roll and improves comfort aboard at anchor
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