D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Agree. Delta and Bruce anchors don’t work in the weedy bottoms often found in the Med
Anchor Scope
- Thread starter Alanij
- Start date
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Send me a ticket and I'll be there. It needs to be a return ticket as I will be going (coming) back home
Deleted User and Ljs - the whole idea is to provide information that is useful to the OP. Giving half the information simply wastes your willingness to help. You convince me I'm wrong and I'll pay for my own ticket!
Take care, stay safe
Embace foreigners
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Is there mention the OP is in the Med? Is there any indication he is unhappy with his anchor?
Unless there is a dearth of threads to provide entertainment introducing anchor choice will mean the OP's question might never be answered.
Bouba - maybe release some more of this gorgeous pictures of classic yachts - they might be a useful distraction (as no-one here is a Phillistine).
Jonathan
[2574]
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No one has yet mentioned high strength chain. I work on the basis that chain is preferable to rope but, especially on planing motorboats, you need to minimise weight in the bows. Therefore high strength chain makes sense. So grade 70 chain but step down from 10mm to 8mm whilst maintaining chain strength specification. There is about a 700g/m advantage of weight of 8mm compared to 10mm. So with 80m in the locker that’s a very significant weight saving of about 50kg. So the motto is - go chain, go long, go high strength.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I think all this is mentioned in one of Johnathans links ^^^ .
[2574]
...
Ah, I confess I didn’t look at J’s links as he and I have debated the subject at length in “another place”.
(p.s. - Jonathan - I’ve the Vulcan fitted and used in anger three times - so far so good!)
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Downsizing chain.
There are two sources. Peerless hold, or held, stock of their galvanised G70 in Germany, I assume in some sort of central warehouse run by Kito, who now own Peerless. Contact Peerless in America and they should point you in the right direction.
The other source is through Jimmy Green.
You will need a new gypsy and gypsies are not cheap. Most windlass makers produce an amazing range of gypsies - contact the windlass supplier. I am not aware that gypsies made by one supplier fit a competitors windlass.
The best time to downsize chain is when you need new chain or a new windlass.
As Robin says you save weight but also free up more space where the chain is stored, and because the new chain takes up less space any problems of towering disappear or are reduced.
You need to be careful with your shackle - as you have downsized the chain the shackle you used will no longer fit the last link. The best shackles are Crosby G209a shackles which are about twice the strength of the common gal shackle you get in the chandler. If you have stainless chain look at the Cromox range through Peteresen in the UK of Ketten Waelder. You can buy Crosby shackles through a UK coy called Tecni.
Check the links I provided (gratifying to know some people read them : ) - or start a new thread and someone send me a PM regarding the thread - otherwise I'll miss it.
Strangely I was firmly, and incorrectly, under the impression MoBo owners did not worry too much about chain weight as commonly their engines, fuel, etc were sufficiently beefy that a 100kg of extra chain was not a concern. No-one ever knows everything - I'm constantly learning.
As mentioned we downsized from 8mm to 6mm.
Jonathan
There are two sources. Peerless hold, or held, stock of their galvanised G70 in Germany, I assume in some sort of central warehouse run by Kito, who now own Peerless. Contact Peerless in America and they should point you in the right direction.
The other source is through Jimmy Green.
You will need a new gypsy and gypsies are not cheap. Most windlass makers produce an amazing range of gypsies - contact the windlass supplier. I am not aware that gypsies made by one supplier fit a competitors windlass.
The best time to downsize chain is when you need new chain or a new windlass.
As Robin says you save weight but also free up more space where the chain is stored, and because the new chain takes up less space any problems of towering disappear or are reduced.
You need to be careful with your shackle - as you have downsized the chain the shackle you used will no longer fit the last link. The best shackles are Crosby G209a shackles which are about twice the strength of the common gal shackle you get in the chandler. If you have stainless chain look at the Cromox range through Peteresen in the UK of Ketten Waelder. You can buy Crosby shackles through a UK coy called Tecni.
Check the links I provided (gratifying to know some people read them :
) - or start a new thread and someone send me a PM regarding the thread - otherwise I'll miss it.Strangely I was firmly, and incorrectly, under the impression MoBo owners did not worry too much about chain weight as commonly their engines, fuel, etc were sufficiently beefy that a 100kg of extra chain was not a concern. No-one ever knows everything - I'm constantly learning.
As mentioned we downsized from 8mm to 6mm.
Jonathan
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Actually I am lying down in bed in a Spanish hotel. Feeling pretty chilled and in no mood to argue with the forum anchor windbag, sorry, I mean expert.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
As you say - its just a Forum, you can largely say what you like (some things you might want to say require some caution) as long as it makes you feel happy
. I do wonder and worry, as I am sure do you, at the things said that bring joy to some individuals - possibly frustration at there being no butterflies or too old to catch them. Take care, stay safe
Jonathan
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
Strangely I was firmly, and incorrectly, under the impression MoBo owners did not worry too much about chain weight as commonly their engines, fuel, etc were sufficiently beefy that a 100kg of extra chain was not a concern. No-one ever knows everything - I'm constantly learning.
As mentioned we downsized from 8mm to 6mm.
Jonathan
[/QUOTE]
What they do not know about they do not worry about theses days the majority of mobo owners .
Ignorance is bliss . .
There is trend in modern recent mobo design to wow potential owners at static shows with the interiors ,Volume and quality of fit out .Also many newbees are entering straight in at bigger sizes .Typically but not exclusively at say 50 ft .They are looking for a floating caravan , naturally with every creature comfort the builder can cram in .
Central mid cabins , massive fly bridges , and IPS propulsion.All this incrementally esp the rearwards bias of the propulsion pods upsets the centre of gravity positions relative to the centre of lift position.
The up shot is they ( many new modals theses days ) ride very bow high .
Ideally the ideal planing angle of the hull should be around 4 degrees or lower .This is established test tank stuff .
Its just more efficient in terms of hull hydrodynamics, lift for a given Hp at at given speed , the sweet spot if you like .
Trim tabs / flaps are used more and more by builders to cross compensate basically ( I know I will get flamed for this ) poor hull design. The pressures of all the above elements means there is so much rearwards extra rearwards bias they need tabs down to get up and bring the bow down in benign seas , never mind a head sea.
Adding more weight like huge tenders and what ever water toys etc etc on the stern areas just potentiates the problem more .
Then the shift to tiny forward anchor lockers another whammy .
So ironically many actually need more weight in the bow , not because to gain a better hold anchoring overnight that’s a secondary benefit , no to go some way to seek the holly grail of a 4 degree or less ave running angle of attack while planning .
But they have limited space in the locker .This is compounded by OEM s weedy anchor sizes .
They can’t go the other way say std 10 mm 40 M + 24kg anchor to 60 m of 12 mm and 30 kg anchor similar to what Deleted User did with his old school designed Ferretti 630 . Not that his boat needs a conscious retrim make over as it’s one of the last old school designs hull wise .
Basically lightening the bow with smaller chain ( albeit longer for a given vol ) + modern material lighter anchor is from a running angle pov going in the wrong direction for theses guys.
There tiny lockers also give them “ towering “ woes .
What i am saying the majority of new ish planning hulls I see coming out , judging by the appalling running angles planning , actually need more weight in the bow , not weight taking out like sail boats on expeditions to far distant lonely and deep anchorages .
As mentioned we downsized from 8mm to 6mm.
Jonathan
[/QUOTE]
What they do not know about they do not worry about theses days the majority of mobo owners .
Ignorance is bliss .
. There is trend in modern recent mobo design to wow potential owners at static shows with the interiors ,Volume and quality of fit out .Also many newbees are entering straight in at bigger sizes .Typically but not exclusively at say 50 ft .They are looking for a floating caravan , naturally with every creature comfort the builder can cram in .
Central mid cabins , massive fly bridges , and IPS propulsion.All this incrementally esp the rearwards bias of the propulsion pods upsets the centre of gravity positions relative to the centre of lift position.
The up shot is they ( many new modals theses days ) ride very bow high .
Ideally the ideal planing angle of the hull should be around 4 degrees or lower .This is established test tank stuff .
Its just more efficient in terms of hull hydrodynamics, lift for a given Hp at at given speed , the sweet spot if you like .
Trim tabs / flaps are used more and more by builders to cross compensate basically ( I know I will get flamed for this ) poor hull design. The pressures of all the above elements means there is so much rearwards extra rearwards bias they need tabs down to get up and bring the bow down in benign seas , never mind a head sea.
Adding more weight like huge tenders and what ever water toys etc etc on the stern areas just potentiates the problem more .
Then the shift to tiny forward anchor lockers another whammy .
So ironically many actually need more weight in the bow , not because to gain a better hold anchoring overnight that’s a secondary benefit , no to go some way to seek the holly grail of a 4 degree or less ave running angle of attack while planning .
But they have limited space in the locker .This is compounded by OEM s weedy anchor sizes .
They can’t go the other way say std 10 mm 40 M + 24kg anchor to 60 m of 12 mm and 30 kg anchor similar to what Deleted User did with his old school designed Ferretti 630 . Not that his boat needs a conscious retrim make over as it’s one of the last old school designs hull wise .
Basically lightening the bow with smaller chain ( albeit longer for a given vol ) + modern material lighter anchor is from a running angle pov going in the wrong direction for theses guys.
There tiny lockers also give them “ towering “ woes .
What i am saying the majority of new ish planning hulls I see coming out , judging by the appalling running angles planning , actually need more weight in the bow , not weight taking out like sail boats on expeditions to far distant lonely and deep anchorages .
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
What they do not know about they do not worry about theses days the majority of mobo owners .
Ignorance is bliss .
.There is trend in modern recent mobo design to wow potential owners at static shows with the interiors ,Volume and quality of fit out .Also many newbees are entering straight in at bigger sizes .Typically but not exclusively at say 50 ft .They are looking for a floating caravan , naturally with every creature comfort the builder can cram in .
Central mid cabins , massive fly bridges , and IPS propulsion.All this incrementally esp the rearwards bias of the propulsion pods upsets the centre of gravity positions relative to the centre of lift position.
The up shot is they ( many new modals theses days ) ride very bow high .
Ideally the ideal planing angle of the hull should be around 4 degrees or lower .This is established test tank stuff .
Its just more efficient in terms of hull hydrodynamics, lift for a given Hp at at given speed , the sweet spot if you like .
Trim tabs / flaps are used more and more by builders to cross compensate basically ( I know I will get flamed for this ) poor hull design. The pressures of all the above elements means there is so much rearwards extra rearwards bias they need tabs down to get up and bring the bow down in benign seas , never mind a head sea.
Adding more weight like huge tenders and what ever water toys etc etc on the stern areas just potentiates the problem more .
Then the shift to tiny forward anchor lockers another whammy .
So ironically many actually need more weight in the bow , not because to gain a better hold anchoring overnight that’s a secondary benefit , no to go some way to seek the holly grail of a 4 degree or less ave running angle of attack while planning .
But they have limited space in the locker .This is compounded by OEM s weedy anchor sizes .
They can’t go the other way say std 10 mm 40 M + 24kg anchor to 60 m of 12 mm and 30 kg anchor similar to what Deleted User did with his old school designed Ferretti 630 . Not that his boat needs a conscious retrim make over as it’s one of the last old school designs hull wise .
Basically lightening the bow with smaller chain ( albeit longer for a given vol ) + modern material lighter anchor is from a running angle pov going in the wrong direction for theses guys.
There tiny lockers also give them “ towering “ woes .
What i am saying the majority of new ish planning hulls I see coming out , judging by the appalling running angles planning , actually need more weight in the bow , not weight taking out like sail boats on expeditions to far distant lonely and deep anchorages .
[/QUOTE]
I'm not against the wow factor, I'm all for increased 'yacht' ownership - I agree there needs to be a balance.
Despite comments to the contrary - I make no claim at expertise, I am happy if you agree with what I say, I am actually happier if you disagree, provide sensible reasoning why you disagree - as I'm not an expert - I'm here to learn. I read posts and find they don't offer the data - a bit of a waste of time - but the absence of data builds a(another) picture - maybe they need simpler script, words of one syllable, maybe they need video.
So I'm grateful to Robih and Portofino for taking the time and trouble to educate. The two posts look contradictory - but offer 2 sides to an equation - I am sure both are correct - because they describe the reality of 2 different scenarios
There is no one right answer.
Sadly because I'm here to learn I am frustrated when we only get part of the answer. It would be so much easier if looking for an answer people, with in depth experience, took the trouble to provide all the relevant data. Go to a chandler to buy G70 chain, they don't tell you that you need to go off and find a compatible shackle from another supplier - why don't they sell a package, each component matching and fitting, anchor, chain, windlass, shackle, swivel (or alternative) - and importantly have the knowledge to explain why A fits to B to C etc etc - its not as if this stuff is cheap.
But I'll be accused of making boring posts - though why forum members persist in reading boring posts is a real mystery - are they so bored they have nothing better to do......?
Thanks to those who take the trouble
Take care, stay safe
Jonathan
Sorry something went wrong with the reply
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Well, we all have different experiences - our Delta has withstood all the weather the Med has thrown at us from Eastern Greece to Gibraltar over 10 years. It can fail to set in weed, absolutely but you find that out the moment you put a bit of reverse on to check the seabed. Once set properly it has never dragged even in highish winds (50 knots plus) in close anchorages where more than 3:1 is impossible.
LBRodders
Well-Known Member
anchor threads - gotta love em
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Alanij
Well-Known Member
Sorry for that - I'd already decided that I was going to go for longer chain, and was merely curious as to what scope others carried, I didn't actually ask for anchoring "advice".
I won't make that mistake again!
LBRodders
Well-Known Member
Don't apologise, its all fair game and fun!
I can get involved ? - I use 2 chain links [added in 10m of chain] and have found that they are completely up to the job. However, I don't have a windlass and manually haul / veer. Because of this I can afford to have 2 D shackles back to back around the link as a back up. Intention was to remove after I had proved the link in decent winds, but they have rusted and I cant be @rsed to remove them.
Right, gotta go before the chain police turn up!
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
A
But to add to @Deleted User list, you could buy a copy of this month's MBY where there is an article on selecting a Rocna over those ?loody useless Delta anchors. I can't remember the words in the article but they made sense to me.
Actually, I'm in a Spanish hotel right now too. Treated SWMBO after her spectacular help in replacing our FB teak.
But to add to @Deleted User list, you could buy a copy of this month's MBY where there is an article on selecting a Rocna over those ?loody useless Delta anchors. I can't remember the words in the article but they made sense to me.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Not ignoring this also in MBY
How to anchor your boat safely and securely - Motor Boat & Yachting
The current issue of MBY will not make its weary way to Oz for some weeks - so I have not read the article - but there are other anchors of merit other than Rocna:
Spade, Ultra, Viking, Kobra, Excel, Supreme, Knox and maybe Epsilon and Vulcan. I have not tried the latter 2, nor seen an Epsilon - so I reserve comment. Not forgetting a Fortress.
Jonathan
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MathiasW
Well-Known Member
So, for the fun of it, if you want to learn perhaps the odd thing about the physics of anchor chains, when they work well (in deep water), and when they do not work at all (in shallow water) and need the help of snubbers, here is the link to my long treaty... 
Catenary Anchor Chain Length - Die Kettenkurve - Fun Facts - SAN
And do not worry, despite the German in the link, it is actually in English - well, my English
Catenary Anchor Chain Length - Die Kettenkurve - Fun Facts - SANAnd do not worry, despite the German in the link, it is actually in English - well, my English
Neeves
Well-Known Member
So, for the fun of it, if you want to learn perhaps the odd thing about the physics of anchor chains, when they work well (in deep water), and when they do not work at all (in shallow water) and need the help of snubbers, here is the link to my long treaty...
And do not worry, despite the German in the link, it is actually in English - well, my English
You should visit more often.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Mathias, sadly, hides his light under a bushel - or expects forum members to beaver away.
Over on the PBO thread Mathias has a lovely and simply spread sheet - that some might find interesting
Shock load on mooring/anchor chain & fittings
He does not point it out - but it underlines the issues of scope, depth and snubbers in simple set of numbers.
enjoy
Take care, stay safe
Jonathan
Over on the PBO thread Mathias has a lovely and simply spread sheet - that some might find interesting
Shock load on mooring/anchor chain & fittings
He does not point it out - but it underlines the issues of scope, depth and snubbers in simple set of numbers.
enjoy
Take care, stay safe
Jonathan