Anchor problems - a warning!

[DAKA]

The Kong definitely has 2 allen bolts at each end. I would be very concerned about a swivel which had a 90deg bolt at one end. I dont remember the comparison in either MBY or MBM but I would be interested if you find anything

Hi Mike,

Its my description which is wrong not the design, trust me !
The link isnt 90' bent, the keys twists 90' to lock it to the other half.



heres a test to be going on with, not even got time to read it now, I m off to play on my boat

http://coxengineering.co.uk/chainandconnectors.aspx

Happy reading

cheers
Pete

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

It's never been a big problem, but using either a roller with a decent diameter, or two rollers (one behind, and higher than the outer one) are the normal solutions.

You'll have to explain that to me. My boat has just such a bow roller arrangement but until I fitted a swivel (actually a Twist now), the anchor tried to park itself upside down in the bow roller about 50% of the time. Trying to manhandle a 30kg anchor to get it to go into the bow roller the right way up is very difficult, especially for females

 

[MartinANick]

Daka - the pic you have attached is exactly the fitting that I have (or rather had!)
All I have left is the portion that fits to the chain. But mine has not expoloded like the one in your photo - mine has become detached because the inset Allen key screw/bolt thingy has come unscrewed. But because the end of the anchor site quite tightly into that slot I dont see how it would be possible to tighten it up if it had become loose without removing the anchor.
Also re the anchor seating. Regularly mine has arrived at the roller upside down and it takes a bit of jiggling up and down to get it to sit correctly and thats with the swivel.
Could this be the cause of it working loose?
If and when I get the anchor back it will be interesting to see actually what has happened

By the way - thanks everyone for taking such an interest

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Daka - the pic you have attached is exactly the fitting that I have (or rather had!)
All I have left is the portion that fits to the chain. But mine has not expoloded like the one in your photo - mine has become detached because the inset Allen key screw/bolt thingy has come unscrewed. But because the end of the anchor site quite tightly into that slot I dont see how it would be possible to tighten it up if it had become loose without removing the anchor.
Also re the anchor seating. Regularly mine has arrived at the roller upside down and it takes a bit of jiggling up and down to get it to sit correctly and thats with the swivel.
Could this be the cause of it working loose?
If and when I get the anchor back it will be interesting to see actually what has happened

By the way - thanks everyone for taking such an interest

There is no inset allen key in the middle. It's a T shaped (from the side) extension of the male end. The 2 halves of the female end have a slot in them which engage with the extension and the only way that the female end can come off this extension is if the allen bolt holding the 2 halves together completely loosens off. The only 2 things you need to check regularly are the allen bolts at either end of the swivel.
Yes, any kind of movement will cause the allen bolts to loosen eventually but you'd have to go years without checking before they did IMHO. Btw, one way to get the anchor to come up the right way is to leave it dangling just below the surface of the water and then go astern. That usually does the trick but not always, hence I have fitted one of these http://www.chandlerysupplies.co.uk/html/the_twist.html which work 100% of the time

 

[MartinANick]

Thanks Mike
I have seen those twist links but thought they were a bit of a gimmick. However I shall now definitely fit one.
Hopefully a pic of my bracket should be here soon so you can see what I mean about the inner screw/bolt or whatever it is having come undone.
I have also done to going astern bit but as I am often out on my own I dont know exactly where the anchor is in relationship to the surface so its a bit of a guess but hasn't seemed to have worked for me. Must be the CI waters - more dense over here you know!

 

[duncan]

Thanks Mike
I have seen those twist links but thought they were a bit of a gimmick. However I shall now definitely fit one.
Hopefully a pic of my bracket should be here soon so you can see what I mean about the inner screw/bolt or whatever it is having come undone.
I have also done to going astern bit but as I am often out on my own I dont know exactly where the anchor is in relationship to the surface so its a bit of a guess but hasn't seemed to have worked for me. Must be the CI waters - more dense over here you know!

 

[MartinANick]

Thanks for putting that pic up for me Duncan. Dont know why I couldn't do it at my end - dont want a full time job do you??!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks for putting that pic up for me Duncan. Dont know why I couldn't do it at my end - dont want a full time job do you??!

Ah, I see what you mean. Thats a very poorly designed swivel as any anti-clockwise rotation of the anchor and chain would possibly try to undo that bolt if the swivel didn't rotate freely. The Kong swivel is not like that as I described. I'd want to be checking that swivel every time I anchored

 

[MartinANick]

Its a bit disapointing. Windy supposed to have a quality reputation which is one of the reasons I bought her and this anchor arrangement was supplied with the new boat. Fabulous boat though in every other way although there are a few things with the build quality that are rather questionable but thats another issue altogether!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Its a bit disapointing. Windy supposed to have a quality reputation which is one of the reasons I bought her and this anchor arrangement was supplied with the new boat. Fabulous boat though in every other way although there are a few things with the build quality that are rather questionable but thats another issue altogether!

It may be a **** swivel but console yourself with the fact that most manufacturers wouldn't have bothered fitting a swivel at all

 

[PaulGooch]

It may be a **** swivel but console yourself with the fact that most manufacturers wouldn't have bothered fitting a swivel at all

He'd still have his anchor then Mike

I have a swivel that looks the same as the one Daka posted the pic of, except mine isn't splayed open lol. The reason that is splayed is because the bolt will have come undone. Not had any problems with mine so far (almost two years old) and it was a relatively cheap one, from a reputable Ebay seller. Loctite on all the threads is a good idea.

 

[duncan]

Thanks for putting that pic up for me Duncan. Dont know why I couldn't do it at my end - dont want a full time job do you??!

yes - but that's another story!

looking at this the only realistic construction I can see would be a bolt through this end, then a larger diameter hole in the other end with a nut....

but then you would still have a bolt in place

mystery to me - makes no sense - this can't be 'the nut'

 

[PaulGooch]

yes - but that's another story!

looking at this the only realistic construction I can see would be a bolt through this end, then a larger diameter hole in the other end with a nut....

but then you would still have a bolt in place

mystery to me - makes no sense - this can't be 'the nut'

Mine has a mushroom shaped pin through the centre, kind of like a large rivet. It's pushed through, the "head" fits flush into a recess and the pin is welded at the other end. The only things to possibly come undone are the two allen bolts that hold the anchor and chain to the swivel, Loctite has made sure these have not come loose (so far, touch wood).

It's one of these :

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-12-MM-STAI...tEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item1e546aef5a

 

[Hurricane]

There is no inset allen key in the middle. It's a T shaped (from the side) extension of the male end. The 2 halves of the female end have a slot in them which engage with the extension and the only way that the female end can come off this extension is if the allen bolt holding the 2 halves together completely loosens off. The only 2 things you need to check regularly are the allen bolts at either end of the swivel.
Yes, any kind of movement will cause the allen bolts to loosen eventually but you'd have to go years without checking before they did IMHO. Btw, one way to get the anchor to come up the right way is to leave it dangling just below the surface of the water and then go astern. That usually does the trick but not always, hence I have fitted one of these http://www.chandlerysupplies.co.uk/html/the_twist.html which work 100% of the time

I posted a past thread on anchor swivels here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225549

This is The Twist that Mike's referring to

This is the crucial swivelling bit

Here it is in the stowed position

And here is a video of it in action





******** HOWEVER ******

The very first time we used it, it all went wrong.
The chain must have run over the anchor as SWMBO was pulling ut up.
The new "Twist" became "locked" at 90 degrees to the anchor shaft.
I thought I was doing the right thing by using the biggest (strongest) shackle that I had in my box rather than the one that was supplied with the twist. The bigger shackle was rather sloppy and when the chain over ran the anchor, the whole thing twisted!!!

Here's what happened - its difficult to explain but I think this pic shows what happened.

Since then, I fitted the shackle that was supplied with the "Twist". The connection between the twist and the anchor is much tighter now and its worked every time since.

So. anyone using the "Twist" should check if this could happen to them.

 

[Bandit]

Sorry to see your problem.

I have just replaced my anchor with a delta and I dont trust swivels, in fact I am not that keen on shackles, I have used a stainless shackle and had it welded on both sides of the Pin.

I have rarely had a problem with the anchor coming up upside down so to speak you just lift the chain off the winch and relay it.

I have sent a PM.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The very first time we used it, it all went wrong.
The chain must have run over the anchor as SWMBO was pulling ut up.
The new "Twist" became "locked" at 90 degrees to the anchor shaft.
I thought I was doing the right thing by using the biggest (strongest) shackle that I had in my box rather than the one that was supplied with the twist. The bigger shackle was rather sloppy and when the chain over ran the anchor, the whole thing twisted!!!

Here's what happened - its difficult to explain but I think this pic shows what happened.

Since then, I fitted the shackle that was supplied with the "Twist". The connection between the twist and the anchor is much tighter now and its worked every time since.

So. anyone using the "Twist" should check if this could happen to them.

Mike, thats happened to me more than once but we always seem to be able to fix it with a couple of clouts with a boat hook. I didnt get any shackle with my Twist at all so I just used one that looked right. Any idea what size of shackle is supplied with your Twist?

 

[craigsmith]

Pulled the anchor up after a pleasant day in Sark. Just as it came up onto the roller the holding bracket snapped and it headed off into the depths. Gone a 15 kg stainless steel Bruce anchor.
Extremely annoyed.
The anchor was held on by a stainless steel swivel bracket which is in 2 parts. It allows the anchor to swing and seat more easily. All I was left with was the 'female' part of the bracket hanging on the end of the chain.
My boat is only 5 years old and this is the first time I've ever heard of this happening.

With respect, there is no such thing as a stainless Bruce anchor, only rather inferior copies. Most swivels are also rather poor quality, and unfortunately this sort of thing is one of the consequences.

Was this a Kong type swivel like thishttp://www.chandlerycompare.com/products.php?categoryId=1235&productId=7526? If so, I have found that the female end tends to splay outwards after a few years use.

Really? I have not heard or seen that with Kongs. Do you have pics?

Several models were tested and the Inox came out top due to the way it was manufactured and in particular the way the pin was held fast both sides of the fastener

Inox is not a model, it is the French and generally Euro term for stainless.

, which should stop this from happening

That happened because the swivel was mounted directly on the anchor then subjected to veer loads - hint, don't do the same - nothing to do with its assembly style.

It is important to over spec the swivel as stainless 316 is fragile compared to steel and it is theoretically possible to break it with the snatch action.

It is important to match the breaking strength of the swivel with that of the chain. 316 is not "fragile compared to steel", it is in fact steel, and usually comparable in all mechanical properties to standard mild steel.

Yup, your pic of the Kong swivel illustrates what I was saying about the female end splaying out which I believe is caused by the allen screw which is supposed to hold the anchor in it becoming loose which is why it's always worth checking the tightness regularly

That is NOT a Kong. Careful who you slander!
Again, it has nothing to do with the assembly style. Any swivel mounted directly on the anchor shank is at risk from that form of failure. It is why your Osculati Twist mandates a shackle to connect to the anchor - sensible design.

The moral to all this is: DON'T USE A SWIVEL. Unless you are sailing in water with the viscosity of treacle, any swivel is entirely unnecessary.

Nonsense. The moral is to avoid using cheap poor quality products. Quality swivels are no more dangerous than quality shackles, and lots find them quite useful. The thing is they're not particularly cheap.

All I have left is the portion that fits to the chain. But mine has not expoloded like the one in your photo - mine has become detached because the inset Allen key screw/bolt thingy has come unscrewed. But because the end of the anchor site quite tightly into that slot I dont see how it would be possible to tighten it up if it had become loose without removing the anchor.
Also re the anchor seating. Regularly mine has arrived at the roller upside down and it takes a bit of jiggling up and down to get it to sit correctly and thats with the swivel.
Could this be the cause of it working loose?

Absolutely. You must use Loctite on any pins, even if they don't look like they're likely to come undone. It is surprising what they will get up to when you're not looking. They should really have mechanical means of prevention.

Ah, I see what you mean. Thats a very poorly designed swivel as any anti-clockwise rotation of the anchor and chain would possibly try to undo that bolt if the swivel didn't rotate freely. The Kong swivel is not like that as I described. I'd want to be checking that swivel every time I anchored

The threaded part shown is not the swivel joint. The other half of the swivel is joined with a bolt, and inside the part shown the bolt is welded in place. The swiveling action happens in the other section. A standard way of doing it. In this case it's hard to see, but the weld and subsequently the thread must have failed.

 

[AndieMac]

Craig Smith

I have just bought a 55 KG Rocna and a 'swivel', which is being stored at the local chandlery till the winch is serviced.
Can you recommend a particular brand of quality swivel to go with the this anchor (local to Oz).
I'm hoping the chandlery has steered me in the right direction, and given the cost of the ground tackle, keen to keep it firmly attached to the chain.
The previous Manson plough, although being a great anchor, was regularly coming up inverted, so a swivel was in the plan for the next upgrade.

 

[craigsmith]

Hey Andie, I'm loathe to make particular brand recommendations as it might be at the expense of another good option I'm unaware of. There are however a few "safe bets" and for example here in NZ I could point you in the right direction. If you let me know what you're looking at now I can comment. Send me a PM or e-mail.

If the inverted anchor is the main problem, you might want to look at the Osculati Twist which has been mentioned above. Otherwise you need to look at why it's coming back upside-down, e.g. chain twisting on the windlass gypsy.

 

[AndieMac]

Thanks Craig,
I just went over to the chandlery now to enquire about the swivel and its quality.
Its made by a NZ company called Ultra Anchors, called the Ultra Swivel. They state its machined out of SS and not cast, with a breaking strain of 12,000 Kgs and the chandlers feel confident it is up to the task.