Anchor chain; length marking, swivels and the bitter end.

Re: prolly get mixed up

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easy way to remember the numbers is:
'Big Balds Rape Our Young Girls But Virgins Go Without
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
My dad tought me that when i was 5 !!!!!
Im so lucky!

[/ QUOTE ]Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Goes Willingly /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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hammer.thumb.gif
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
 
Well we changed from octoplait back to 3 strand nylon. The former used to jam the windlass, the latter doesn't.
On reading the windlass bumf it does in fact recommend 3 strand - pity I didn't read this before I spliced the octoplait onto the chain /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
ah but we are not discussing the actual anchor rode or anything passing through the windlass!

I did have octoplait jam in the splitter on my windlass (bending it out of shape bigtime) but I have now gone another 2 seasons without a problem.......wood wood where are you..........
 
You are obviously using a combined chain and warp gypsy - personally dont like those as they :

require 3 strand rope
have a well deserved reputation for chewing the rope.

If you have a drum on your windlass, then you have a much better way to bring the warp onboard, and getting heavyweight to top of mast is a dodle!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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You are obviously using a combined chain and warp gypsy - personally dont like those as they :

require 3 strand rope
have a well deserved reputation for chewing the rope.


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Only some run 3 strand only, many use Octiplait very well and in some cases a lot better than the laid rope. One prominent winchmaker designs all their winches to use octiplait as the 1st choice.

Auto Rope to chain winches chew the rope if the operator does not know what they are doing or the wrong rope is used. Setup right and used properly rope chewing should not be an issue.

Swivels are perfectly fine to use and sometimes improve performance considerably BUT you have to get a proper anchor swivel. An awful lot being sold are not only weak but are not intended as anchor swivels. There are many very very good ones that work well and are as or more stronger than the chains they are on.

Personally I prefer to have the 'weakest link' being the chain to anchor connection, this way if anything does go I'll only lose my anchor.

Like most things, when you shop for gear like this take the little extra effort to find someone who knows what they are talking about. We find, usually, most get 'help' from their mates or staff of big chainstore type marine outfits. This usually ends in tears.
 
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Personally I prefer to have the 'weakest link' being the chain to anchor connection, this way if anything does go I'll only lose my anchor.

[/ QUOTE ]If your chain to anchor connector breaks then your boat will float away in the direction of the wind and tide. Your anchor will be easily retrievable by a diver but you and your boat might end up shipwrecked. There should be no 'weakest link' by design in any anchoring or mooring system. Make sure that all components are rated to similar safe working and maximum loads and that they are comfortably within the loads you are expecting.
 
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Personally I prefer to have the 'weakest link' being the chain to anchor connection, this way if anything does go I'll only lose my anchor.

[/ QUOTE ]If your chain to anchor connector breaks then your boat will float away in the direction of the wind and tide. Your anchor will be easily retrievable by a diver but you and your boat might end up shipwrecked. There should be no 'weakest link' by design in any anchoring or mooring system. Make sure that all components are rated to similar safe working and maximum loads and that they are comfortably within the loads you are expecting.

[/ QUOTE ]Surely, by definition there'll always be a weakest link - it's the bit that breaks when you pull too hard!!!

It makes sense to design a weakest, or a least strong if you prefer, link into any system, and it also makes sense for it to be at the point where failure will cause the least cost. Other constraints (cost, weight) aside, it would be sensible to have a link that would fail before the rode and attachment to the boat are overstressed, but which is still strong enough to take the maximum possible snatch load. The only sensible point for that link is close to the anchor.
 
>>Surely, by definition there'll always be a weakest link - it's the bit that breaks when you pull too hard!!!<<

In practice that isn't possible. Nobody could tell you accurately what force your windlass, samson post or deck cleats will take before breaking. Under extreme conditions one attaches the rode to several strong deck points by means of warp and rolling hitches, for example. You can help further by using the primary winches to stretch lines bar-taught between the bow and midships cleats and use both. In essence, you try as far as possible to make the attachment to the boat unbreakable.

You also provide a good deal of springing by using a lot of chain and/or a length of nylon rode - this reduces snatching loads.

When it comes to the chain and anchor, they should be designed to take similar loads, as should the anchor connector. In extremis something will break first but if the parts have been selected carefully, the part that fails is more likely to be the part that has weakened through age or corrosion, over the years and NOT(!!!) a 'weak link'.

You would never sleep if you had a deliberate weak link in your anchor rode....the idea is as nutty as a fruit cake /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit:-- Let's be clear about this...the consequences of your anchor failing under severe conditions are the total loss of your boat and you and your crew being drowned. How will you feel when you realise that your weak link was the cause of someone's death?
 
Re: prolly get mixed up

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
easy way to remember the numbers is:
'Big Balds Rape Our Young Girls But Virgins Go Without
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
My dad tought me that when i was 5 !!!!!
Im so lucky!

[/ QUOTE ]Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Goes Willingly /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
--------------------
hammer.thumb.gif
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"

[/ QUOTE ]

Better be right or your great big venture goes west

:-)
 
Oh calm down…

My swivel has a load that is just about that of my chain and more than acceptable for the job required of it. That load is a smidgen less than that of the chain.

The load my swivel will take is still in excess of what the anchor will hold (stuck in rocks excepted), the winch clutches will hold, the snubber is designed to take and the Chinese made shackles and chain (ignorance is bliss) some are using out there.

In practice that isn't possible. Nobody could tell you accurately what force your windlass, samson post or deck cleats will take before breaking.
In practice it is possible to get a close idea of loads individual components of and anchoring system will take, this includes cleats, ropes, chains and etc. I do it most days as part of my job.

You also provide a good deal of springing by using a lot of chain and/or a length of nylon rode - this reduces snatching loads.
Absolutly right.

When it comes to the chain and anchor, they should be designed to take similar loads, as should the anchor connector.
Just as my system is. All the loads my Rode will take are similar just the swivel is the one with the lowest load by a small amount i.e. the weakest link.

In extremis something will break first but if the parts have been selected carefully, the part that fails is more likely to be the part that has weakened through age or corrosion, over the years and NOT(!!!) a 'weak link'.
I would regard leaving things there long enough that components have degraded due to age or corrosion becomes an issue as poor seamanship.

You would never sleep if you had a deliberate weak link in your anchor rode....the idea is as nutty as a fruit cake /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
There is more than one who regard me as a Nutter for assorted reasons /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) but not for being an un-safe boaty. I sleep very well as my snubber takes the shock loads out very well. If the snubber let go it would be noticed very fast even if asleep and I would know there is a problem. This is assuming I had not already been aware the weather was going bad.

Let's be clear about this...the consequences of your anchor failing under severe conditions are the total loss of your boat and you and your crew being drowned. How will you feel when you realise that your weak link was the cause of someone's death?
Lets be clear about what I’m actually saying – The chain and connections are more than adequate for the job required BUT if things turn to real s**t and, say, my anchor has become wedged in rocks and the anchor rode is loaded to the extreme, I would expect the snubber to go then the winch to smoke up as the clutches fail and nasty shock loading. By this stage, even if I had no ears or looked outside at the weather, I would notice something is not good.

Now my anchor is stuck, winch broken, the weather is very extreme, what is next? I have a couple of choices 1- stay there unable to bail out, not an option I’d like, 2- Get out a hacksaw and lose all my anchor gear and possibly a finger or 2 or 3, wait for something to tear out of the deck. I’d prefer to anchor to chain connection be next to bust rather than the deck cleats being ripped out possibly leaving a bloody great hole.

In short, many other parts of my system/s have to fail before the swivel load becomes an issue. If these go un-noticed I’d agree with your nutter statement, fortunately it would be very very hard not to notice a problem is building.

Part of my job is designing anchoring systems for boats and other things. Over 10 years now without a failure of the gear I have specified. I’m happy my theories are proven sound and my systems safer than many other boaties out there.
 
I agree with you completely GMac.

The trouble is that the panic artists, without any obvious experience in mooring or boat systems design, are assuming that you are saying that the anchor to chain link should be less than the design loads and inviting failure. Anyone with a modicom of sense knows that is not so.

I would have thought it was pretty obvious that when the anchoring system design loads are exceeded one would hope that any failure was at a recoverable point, and that best at the anchor so that one still has ones cable to redeploy. But there again, while many of us carry spare anchors, maybe they all carry spare full chain cables as well /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

John
 
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...BUT if things turn to real s**t and, say, my anchor has become wedged in rocks and the anchor rode is loaded to the extreme, I would expect the snubber to go then the winch to smoke up as the clutches fail and nasty shock loading. By this stage, even if I had no ears or looked outside at the weather, I would notice something is not good.

Now my anchor is stuck, winch broken, the weather is very extreme, what is next? I have a couple of choices 1- stay there unable to bail out, not an option I’d like, 2- Get out a hacksaw and lose all my anchor gear and possibly a finger or 2 or 3, wait for something to tear out of the deck. I’d prefer to anchor to chain connection be next to bust rather than the deck cleats being ripped out possibly leaving a bloody great hole.

[/ QUOTE ]The standard action - and has been for over a hundred years - is to do neither of those things but instead buoy the anchor chain and let it loose by unattaching it from the boat. The bitter end should be attached by a light cord which can be cut by a pocket knife. Which is why POPS referred to cutting the line in his earlier post. It would be very unsafe to leave the bitter end attached to the vessel by means of a shackle or other mechanical device that could not be severed quickly in an emergency, on a moving deck even in the dark. This is all standard practice....I cannot think why you are thinking in terms of weak links and hacksaws.

Sorry about my 'nutty' comment....it was intended to be lighthearted but on re-reading it in context, it is not as respectful as I would have wished. Sorry /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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What's recommended for length marking on anchor chain, cable ties or paint? What spacing, every 5M or what? If you use cable ties, don't they foul the windlass?



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I have 1m of green paint at 25m another yellow meter at 45m and a couple of red painted meters at 70m in a total of 75m of chain. I find this system more than adequate and very simple. I only have to say to SWMBO "tell me when the green/yellow/red comes out" and that's it.

OK, I cannot answer the question "how many meters of chain do you have in the water" but I can always lie if someone asked /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif and, that's all!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...BUT if things turn to real s**t and, say, my anchor has become wedged in rocks and the anchor rode is loaded to the extreme, I would expect the snubber to go then the winch to smoke up as the clutches fail and nasty shock loading. By this stage, even if I had no ears or looked outside at the weather, I would notice something is not good.

Now my anchor is stuck, winch broken, the weather is very extreme, what is next? I have a couple of choices 1- stay there unable to bail out, not an option I’d like, 2- Get out a hacksaw and lose all my anchor gear and possibly a finger or 2 or 3, wait for something to tear out of the deck. I’d prefer to anchor to chain connection be next to bust rather than the deck cleats being ripped out possibly leaving a bloody great hole.

[/ QUOTE ]The standard action - and has been for over a hundred years - is to do neither of those things but instead buoy the anchor chain and let it loose by unattaching it from the boat. The bitter end should be attached by a light cord which can be cut by a pocket knife. Which is why POPS referred to cutting the line in his earlier post. It would be very unsafe to leave the bitter end attached to the vessel by means of a shackle or other mechanical device that could not be severed quickly in an emergency, on a moving deck even in the dark. This is all standard practice....I cannot think why you are thinking in terms of weak links and hacksaws.

Sorry about my 'nutty' comment....it was intended to be lighthearted but on re-reading it in context, it is not as respectful as I would have wished. Sorry /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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G'day Lemain,

My comments regarding hacksaws and the like was in the extreme end of things as an example only relating to my 'weskest link theory', which I might add, I hope to have to never put to a real life test. I would like to think all sane boaties would not have got into that situation in the first place.

I totally agree with the 'bouy it' practice and have actually done it, more to shut the cook up in a hurry that gear failure /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

There is also the other small part of my theory that if it did come down to the swivel letting go the remaining chain draging along the seabed might give me more time to get going and out of there, again I hope to never have to prove this part either.

I just like to leave myself as many options as possible and I think my swivel theory gives me one more option if the muck hits the fan. I'm a great believer in Murphy's Law so I like leaving as many escape routes as possible.

Absolutly no disresect was taken with the Nutty statement as I hope none was taken by my reply . I did understand it was ment 'in the nicest possible way' /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Not to mention I get called it so often I sometimes thing they printed the name in my Passport wrong /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I do see some people get a bit 'upset' on the forum from time time but I like to think we are all just very passionate boaties who are trying to make life all a bit easier or help the rest of us. Sometimes the passion we all have does get the better of us and in a burst of enthusiasm the words just come out wrong. I'm guilty of this frequently as maybe seen by my somewhat extreme example and bad explanation of the 'weakest link theory'. It just another part of the rich tapestry we call life I suppose.

A 18kt breeze on the aft quarter and flat water to you all
GMac
 
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