Anchor chain. Change from 8mm to 10mm ?

sarabande said:
Going to an electric winch will need more resources and time than I can dispose; so a manual one is the route forwards.
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Shame, it would definitely be easier with electric, although i guess you know that :)

I like the idea of a vertical windlass, but my chat with SLSpares leads towards a horizontal two-speed one
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Vertical can be a pain in the arse. Unless you have a good fall the chain is more prone to snagging and if you have mixed rode it requires mostly hand feeding the rope. A vertical manual windlass could be a nightmare.

Personally, i'd stick with the 8mm. Preferably an electric windlass, but definitely horizontal. If you have crew get them to slowly motor forward while you hand haul the slack chain and only use the windlass when the bow is over the anchor (although i suspect you know this too :))
 
There seems to be some serious contradictions here.

The need to reduce the effort needed, on a creaky back, resulting in a look at a manual windlass (that will still need a creaky back).

The need to reduce effort needed to retrieve anchor by hand, whether supported by a manual windlass or not, and a desire to use some 10mm chain sitting forlorn and unused.

Whichever physical constraints are felt now are unlikely to get better and it might merit wondering how difficult the same task will be in 5 years time.

With no disrespect to the expertise of the SL engineer - but I think the combined experience at Lewmar or Muir or Maxwell et al might merit consideration. I have to wonder if the restriction to a 10mm manual windlass is determined by what is available as a reconditioned windlass and spares might be an issue in the future. Possibly another supplier would have a manual windlass for 8mm chain.

I understand that the yacht currently has no windlass, or it does but its Sarabande himself. Adding a windlass demands ensuring the deck is sufficiently robust, or some reinforcing might be considered - but if you are going to that effort then adding an electric windlass is not that much extra. Modern windlass are easy to install - and there is sufficient expertise on this forum to define exactly what the power and wiring implications might be. This information would be available from the relevant windlass supplier - but its not difficult ( we did it, added a new windlass, with our new chain).

The actual size of the anchors is not quantified but lifting 40m of 10mm chain and a 15 kg anchor with a manual windlass say at a depth of 5m will not be a bundle of laughs - I certainly would not want to do it every time I anchored - effectively the effort would discourage me from anchoring (but then I acknowledge I'm both a wimp and lazy).

I would lean in the other direction, new (small) electric windlass and the existing 8mm chain or if you can access 1/4" G43 or 6mm G40. If you can gain sight of a test certificate and confirm good quality Chinese G30 chain (ie at about G40 quality) I'd then consider 6mm G30 chain.

But if have already decided you really want to use 10mm - then much of the advice given in many of the posts will be unacceptable.

Jonathan
 
I suspect 6mm components will be MUCH cheaper too. Try the Lewmar Sprint. You could also limit the amount of chain to 100-200' and use the rest as rope, with a rope-to-chain splice. A long splices passes fine. The loads will be less than mine, and this gear works for me. And yes, very bad back. If I had a manual windlass I wouldn't be sailing. Ugh.

Irony%u00252BSplice%u00252Bcropped.jpg

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2016/05/irony-splice.html
 
I swapped from 8mm G30 to 6mm G80 (both have a similar UTS, the G80 is slightly higher and the extension to break is identical). My 50m of 8mm fitted neatly into 2 x 20l paint pails. The 50m of 6mm fitted into 1 x 20l paint pail. The weight savings are not great - in fact I accepted them - and actually now carry 75m of 6mm G80.

The weight differences mentioned for the OP amount to 40kg - not that much. But consider having a sylph like young lady standing on your bow as you tack to windward. You wouldn't do it - but if she were a real sylph - that would be her weight.

Jonathan
 
I have a 32 foot boat, 8 ton and use 60m of 10mm chain and 50m warp with a SL anchorman manual windlass. It is fine in up to 10 meters of water, gets a bit tricky in 15m and impossible in 20 metres. It has nothing to do with the weight of the anchor either, I simply do not have the strength to turn the windlass handle with the weight of the chain alone. I am relatively young and fit but will be downsizing as soon as possible.

Kieran
 
GHA said:
Was there much difference in the boat sailing about at anchor afterwards?
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Not that we have noticed.

But the difference between 30m of 8mm chain and 30m of 6mm chain at 5:1 scope with 6m from seabed to bow roller, in terms of rode tension with all the chain just off the seabed, is minimal - 15kg. So our chain might lift a little bit earlier now, in terms of average wind, than with 8mm -but really its not something we notice. At 17-20 knot under that 8mm x 30m x 5:1 x 6m regime - all our chain would be off the bottom, maybe it happens at 15 knots now. We simply do not notice.

The differences in weight down sizing from 12mm to 10mm (so going from G30 to G70/80) are significant and the differences in sailing at anchor might be greater - but I simply don't know as a cruising yacht using 12mm chain would, normally, be pretty hefty.

A couple of caveats: We do use very long snubbers, 14m each side of a bridle based on climbing rope. We do, as standard practice, anchor in a 'V' if winds to which we will be exposed are to be sustained at over 30 knots. Its not relevant to the question (nor thread) but we have been exclusively use 8kg alloy anchors since we installed the new rode - 38' cat, 7t cruising mode (similar windage to a Bav 45). Our second rode is 15m of 6mm G80 and nylon and we usually row the second anchor out. Its so much easier to deploy now - all the chain on the second rode weighs 15kg - and I can lower the chain and anchor under control easily by hand.

Some other advantages: We don't suffer as previously with towering - there is more room in the anchor locker and as it has a flat floor we can push piles of chain around easily (as it is so light). Because we can shove chain around - we could use space in the anchor locker more efficiently - except our anchor locker is difficult to access, so it stays pretty empty.

We do not regret the change - but the new windlass is also easier (maybe improvements in technology over the last 20+ years) but its faster, quieter and uses less power (this latter part because it has less to lift) though we opted for an electric motor for the 8mm windlass (1,000 watt).

Apologies Sarabande for drifting slightly :)

Jonathan
 
I also have 10mm chain with a manual windlass, Moody 33, but when hauling the anchor I do it manually as it is so slow using the windlass. My wife usually motors slowly forward whilst I'm hauling. It works for us but am seriously considering an electric windlass with 8mm G40 chain as a winter project. BGD near Felixstowe has some good prices and I'm very tempted.
 
PetiteFleur has a good point both manual and powered windlasses are slow.

Bringing in your 8mm stuff by hand is fast and that is what you need singlehanded, it can make the difference between getting away quickly under sail and have to plod around with the engine running, cranking that handle.

Of course power would be useful now and again as is the huge pull of a manual winch, what we need is my patented manual/rechargeable windlass as outlined here:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?439057-Dragon-s-Den&highlight=dragon's+den

It met with a mixed response but I think KTL industries are interested.

More seriously, I find a week away on the boat and my back is no problem, sitting here hours a day wasting my time and I can hardly get out of bed in the morning. I will keep dragging the 8mm chain in by hand as long as I can tackle it.
 
langstonelayabout said:
On a windy night no-one wishes that they had lighter ground tackle.. . . t.
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This.

Peter Smith teaches us that more weight in the ground tackle should go into the anchor, not the chain, but I don't agree that lighter chain is harmless. Heavier, longer chain gives noticeably better damping (I don't even use a snubber much on my present boat with 100m of 12mm chain), and can tolerate wear and a bit of rust better, than lighter chain can.

The downside -- and this can be significant -- is that if you store your chain up in the very bows of the boat like most do, the weight there will hurt your sailing performance upwind. This can be a big minus in a small, good-sailing boat. If your boat is either larger or not so good sailing, then you won't care.
 
PetiteFleur said:
I also have 10mm chain with a manual windlass, Moody 33, but when hauling the anchor I do it manually as it is so slow using the windlass. My wife usually motors slowly forward whilst I'm hauling. It works for us but am seriously considering an electric windlass with 8mm G40 chain as a winter project. BGD near Felixstowe has some good prices and I'm very tempted.
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I had 10mm chain on my previous boat with a manual windlass. It was slow and could be somewhat tedious but you get used to it. I would prefer a bit of tedium, to less security at anchor.
 
sarabande said:
32ft Sailing boat, 6 tons displacement. Two main anchors (sized for a 36ft boat) both currently on 8mm chain.

I am lusting gently for a manual winch to ease the workload on a creaky back.

I've had a very useful progressive talk with SLSpares, the Simpson Lawrence winch man. He recommends the Seatiger, for which the smallest gypsy is 10mm., and by chance I have 60mm *** of calibrated good chain from my 36ft previous boat. :)


Question. Is 10 mm chain an excessively oversize upgrade choice, in order to accommodate the Seatiger winch ? I have a very conservative approach to equipment, and am happy with the idea lying to weightier chain matched to the (relatively) large anchors. Am I being over-cautious ? A third anchor (kedge) is on 8mm and will remain at that size.


*** EDIT. That is Exmoor speak for 60metres O:
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Sara you do not need to cart a shorter length of 10mm chain carry the same weight of longer 8mm, that is more than adequate for your fine yacht
A Fortress with 3m of 8mm chain spliced to 50m x 14mm anchorplait warp
 
Colvic Watson said:
In what way is 8mm chain less secure?
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Less strong (unless you increase the grade), less weight giving less catenary effect. Loses its strength to corrosion and wear more quickly because there is less material in it.

The catenary effect disappears once the chain is bar-tight, but this happens later with heavier chain.

Catenary effect is two-fold -- improves the angle of pull on the anchor, making it hold more securely (but remember this disappears at the limits); dampens snatch loads (this can also be done with a well-designed snubber).

It's not the most importance quality of your ground tackle, but heavy chain does certainly bring some benefits, if you can afford the weight in your bows.
 
if you want weight in the catenary, you could use a kellet.

Extra weight in the bow of a medium size boat will not only trim the bow down, but also make it hit every wave harder when sailing upwind.
Personally I would not choose a long heavy chain for a boat with no electric windlass.
It ruins those days when you chuck the hook in the bay in light wind.
 
lw395 said:
if you want weight in the catenary, you could use a kellet.

Extra weight in the bow of a medium size boat will not only trim the bow down, but also make it hit every wave harder when sailing upwind.
Personally I would not choose a long heavy chain for a boat with no electric windlass.
It ruins those days when you chuck the hook in the bay in light wind.
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I agree about the effect of weight in the bow, which will be a really big, maybe overwhelming consideration for small, good-sailing boats.

For casual "chucking the hook", though, use your kedge! A Fortress on rope, not chain.
 
Dockhead said:
Less strong (unless you increase the grade), less weight giving less catenary effect. Loses its strength to corrosion and wear more quickly because there is less material in it.

The catenary effect disappears once the chain is bar-tight, but this happens later with heavier chain.

Catenary effect is two-fold -- improves the angle of pull on the anchor, making it hold more securely (but remember this disappears at the limits); dampens snatch loads (this can also be done with a well-designed snubber).

It's not the most importance quality of your ground tackle, but heavy chain does certainly bring some benefits, if you can afford the weight in your bows.
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Catenary effect is non existent in a F6 and upwards, at under a F6 it's not doing very much unless in very low winds where it can stop you drifting about. 8mm gives Catenary at low and mid strength winds.

Breaking strain? Seriously do you expect the chain to give out first?!!

So the question stays, In what way is 8mm chain less secure?
 
Dockhead said:
I agree about the effect of weight in the bow, which will be a really big, maybe overwhelming consideration for small, good-sailing boats.

For casual "chucking the hook", though, use your kedge! A Fortress on rope, not chain.
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Having one anchor and rode permanently stored in the bow, then generally using a different one seems like hard work to me.
Even a fortress (with a bit of chain and a good length of string) is a heavyish awkward thing to get to the bow if you've got a bad back.
 
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