An unusual master mariner and teacher of navigation and seamanship
- Thread starter Hydrozoan
- Start date
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Interesting and surprising. The first woman Chief Engineer - employed of course by Blue Funnel, who had Quite Advanced Views for a shipowning dynasty - could not take her Certificate for a couple of decades between the wars because the Board of Trade Examiners refused to give it to her, simply because she was female.
Biggles Wader
Well-Known Member
Welllll. She qualified as a master mariner then became a head teacher in West Wales by the age of 21. And a poet/journalist.
I think there might be some degree of license in the poetry here.
I think there might be some degree of license in the poetry here.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
It was probably possible for an educated person to become a head teacher in a small school by that age in those days. Remember that most children left school at 11 or maybe 14, and that teachers might only be a year or two older than that.
Perhaps someone with historical knowledge in the field could let us know if it would be possible to get a master's ticket in four years then. It doesn't sound impossible. Was there a theory qualification, à la RYA?
There is more about her at http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-48648
Bru
Well-Known Member
The teaching side, no problem. My Great Aunt was head of school by the time she was 22
The masters ticket I'm a bit sceptical about. From records I've studied relating to my family (lots!) it usually took two to three years of sea service, at least, to gain a Mates ticket and then several more years to gain a Masters ticket
Off the top of my head (don't have access to my records right now) I think the fastest I've seen started as an apprentice at 15 and gained his Masters ticket at 23 (but the first record of him sailing as Master isn't until he's 27)
So four years seems a bit quick to me unless there was a bit of record fiddling going on
The masters ticket I'm a bit sceptical about. From records I've studied relating to my family (lots!) it usually took two to three years of sea service, at least, to gain a Mates ticket and then several more years to gain a Masters ticket
Off the top of my head (don't have access to my records right now) I think the fastest I've seen started as an apprentice at 15 and gained his Masters ticket at 23 (but the first record of him sailing as Master isn't until he's 27)
So four years seems a bit quick to me unless there was a bit of record fiddling going on
Hydrozoan
Well-Known Member
This, in addition to giving some more information about her, suggests that she might have sailed with her father from the age of 13: https://www.llangrannog.org.uk/cranogwen.htm. An interesting life, anyway.
emandvee44
Well-Known Member
Definitely not possible!
M.
M.
Frank Holden
Well-Known Member
' She spent two years as a sailor aboard her father's ketch, which travelled between the ports of Wales, England, and France, and carried cargoes of coal and household goods. Then she resumed her education, attending ‘higher schools’ in Newquay (where she studied navigation), Pont-siân, and Cardigan. She studied at a nautical school in London, where she gained her master's certificate, a qualification allowing her to command a ship in any part of the world. At some point she also studied English literature at Blackburne House in Liverpool.'
Not without the bounds of possibilty that she had a 'Home Trade' master's ticket at 21..... no way did she have seatime for an FG ticket...
Home trade?... i.e. the Elbe to Brest
Age? back in the dream time you could sit your 2nd Mates Foreign Going at 19... couldn't use it until you were 20...
Not without the bounds of possibilty that she had a 'Home Trade' master's ticket at 21..... no way did she have seatime for an FG ticket...
Home trade?... i.e. the Elbe to Brest
Age? back in the dream time you could sit your 2nd Mates Foreign Going at 19... couldn't use it until you were 20...
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Bru
Well-Known Member
Good point Frank, hadn't noticed that she'd only sailed for two years in home waters
That would be just about enough sea time to gain a Mates ticket qualified, as you say, for home waters
No way is it enough to gain a Masters ticket, she'd have needed at least another two years at sea as Mate
This is assuming that the reporting accurately reflects the facts of course
I'll be back on the main confuser later and I'll do some research in the records
That would be just about enough sea time to gain a Mates ticket qualified, as you say, for home waters
No way is it enough to gain a Masters ticket, she'd have needed at least another two years at sea as Mate
This is assuming that the reporting accurately reflects the facts of course
I'll be back on the main confuser later and I'll do some research in the records
Frank Holden
Well-Known Member
Seatime and other requirements for home trade mate way back when...
'Home Trade Passenger Ship.
Qualifications for Certificates of Competency for a ‘Home Trade Passenger Ship.’
'Mate.
14. A MATE must write a legible hand, and understand the first four rules of arithmetic. He must know and understand the rule of the road, and describe and show that he understands the Admiralty regulations as to lights. He must be able to take a bearing by compass, and prick off the ship’s course on a chart. He must know the marks in the lead line, and be able to work and heave the log. '
No mention of age restrictions and only one year's service as mate (HT) required before sitting for a master's (HT) ticket....
'Home Trade Passenger Ship.
Qualifications for Certificates of Competency for a ‘Home Trade Passenger Ship.’
........
Master.
15. A MASTER must have served one year as a Mate in the Foreign or Home Trade. In addition to the qualifications required for a mate, he must show that he is capable of navigating a ship along any coast, for which purpose he will be required to draw upon a chart produced by the Examiner the courses and distances he would run along shore from headland to headland, and to give in the writing courses and distances corrected for variation, and the bearings of the headlands and lights, and to show when the course should be altered either to clear any danger, or to adapt it to the coast. He must understand how to make his soundings according to the state of the tide. He will also be questioned as to his knowledge of the use and management of the mortar and rocket lines in the case of the stranding vessel, as explained in the Official Log Book.
Scroll down a bit... interesting that only HT passo ships are mentioned...
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/GenBosunMastersExam.html
So quite conceivable she had Home Trade Masters at 20 years of age...
'Home Trade Passenger Ship.
Qualifications for Certificates of Competency for a ‘Home Trade Passenger Ship.’
'Mate.
14. A MATE must write a legible hand, and understand the first four rules of arithmetic. He must know and understand the rule of the road, and describe and show that he understands the Admiralty regulations as to lights. He must be able to take a bearing by compass, and prick off the ship’s course on a chart. He must know the marks in the lead line, and be able to work and heave the log. '
No mention of age restrictions and only one year's service as mate (HT) required before sitting for a master's (HT) ticket....
'Home Trade Passenger Ship.
Qualifications for Certificates of Competency for a ‘Home Trade Passenger Ship.’
........
Master.
15. A MASTER must have served one year as a Mate in the Foreign or Home Trade. In addition to the qualifications required for a mate, he must show that he is capable of navigating a ship along any coast, for which purpose he will be required to draw upon a chart produced by the Examiner the courses and distances he would run along shore from headland to headland, and to give in the writing courses and distances corrected for variation, and the bearings of the headlands and lights, and to show when the course should be altered either to clear any danger, or to adapt it to the coast. He must understand how to make his soundings according to the state of the tide. He will also be questioned as to his knowledge of the use and management of the mortar and rocket lines in the case of the stranding vessel, as explained in the Official Log Book.
Scroll down a bit... interesting that only HT passo ships are mentioned...
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/GenBosunMastersExam.html
So quite conceivable she had Home Trade Masters at 20 years of age...
Bru
Well-Known Member
Ta Frank (ongoing domestic crisis stopped me looking things up this morning)
It does seem possible then
I'm wondering if her records are in the available archives. I'll try and have a look later if I get the chance (waiting on a call back which will probably be followed by another trip to the hospital sigh)
It does seem possible then
I'm wondering if her records are in the available archives. I'll try and have a look later if I get the chance (waiting on a call back which will probably be followed by another trip to the hospital sigh)
Hydrozoan
Well-Known Member
These libraries hold her biographies (in Welsh) of 1932 (‘Cofiant Cranogwen’, Rev D G Jones) https://copac.jisc.ac.uk/search?&title=cofiant+cranogwen and 1980 (‘Cranogwen. Portread Newydd’, Gerallt Jones) https://copac.jisc.ac.uk/search?&title=Cranogwen+Portread+newydd. I’ll ask Mrs H to take a look when she is next in Oxford, Cardiff or London – but that may not be soon, and of course they may add little to the nautical aspect.
Sarah Jane was born in 1839 to Captain John Rees (1807-1893) and the only web reference I can find to that name in the area is this: ‘Schillizzi‘ Schooner 88t. b. 1849 Harrington, Cumberland. 1860 Captain John Rees (http://www.glen-johnson.co.uk/cardigan-st-dogmaels-ships-and-captains/). Schillizzi was a Liverpool shipowner in the mid-C19th, and Sarah Jane studied ‘at some point’ (albeit reportedly English literature, not navigation) at Blackburne House in Liverpool. That was founded as a girl’s school in 1844 by George Holt, one of a group of Unitarian ship owners and merchants, three of whose sons became shipowners. All very conjectural - and I guess that many schools in Liverpool at the time would have been connected with ship owners.
Sarah Jane was born in 1839 to Captain John Rees (1807-1893) and the only web reference I can find to that name in the area is this: ‘Schillizzi‘ Schooner 88t. b. 1849 Harrington, Cumberland. 1860 Captain John Rees (http://www.glen-johnson.co.uk/cardigan-st-dogmaels-ships-and-captains/). Schillizzi was a Liverpool shipowner in the mid-C19th, and Sarah Jane studied ‘at some point’ (albeit reportedly English literature, not navigation) at Blackburne House in Liverpool. That was founded as a girl’s school in 1844 by George Holt, one of a group of Unitarian ship owners and merchants, three of whose sons became shipowners. All very conjectural - and I guess that many schools in Liverpool at the time would have been connected with ship owners.
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Hydrozoan
Well-Known Member
Sarah Jane Rees was not selected for the Cardiff statue, the winner being Betty Campbell, Wales’ first black headmistress: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46924839. The educational video on Sarah Jane was linked to one on the temperance movement, and adds nothing about her nautical exploits though it repeats the FG ticket story (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06n2bpj/clips).