an awkward dilemma

Seakindly

Seakindly

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I recently helped an owner as crew on a long passage. I was alarmed to discover the boat was unsound, with no rescue or recovery kit, no mast head lights, no speed, log, depth or recent charts and seamanship that concerned me ie no log kept, VHF never used. In fact, comprehensively dire. Having tried encouragement and argument to no avail, how the heck does one prevent a probable loss of boat and lives sometime in the future? I too do not want over-regulation, but on the other hand, it seems you can go to sea in a bath-tub without restraint. Any ideas on what, if anything I might do?
 
Seakindly said:
I recently helped an owner as crew on a long passage. I was alarmed to discover the boat was unsound, with no rescue or recovery kit, no mast head lights, no speed, log, depth or recent charts and seamanship that concerned me ie no log kept, VHF never used. In fact, comprehensively dire. Having tried encouragement and argument to no avail, how the heck does one prevent a probable loss of boat and lives sometime in the future? I too do not want over-regulation, but on the other hand, it seems you can go to sea in a bath-tub without restraint. Any ideas on what, if anything I might do?
Click to expand...

[it seems you can go to sea in a bath-tub without restraint.]
Correct
 
Seakindly said:
I recently helped an owner as crew on a long passage. I was alarmed to discover the boat was unsound, with no rescue or recovery kit, no mast head lights, no speed, log, depth or recent charts and seamanship that concerned me ie no log kept, VHF never used. In fact, comprehensively dire. Having tried encouragement and argument to no avail, how the heck does one prevent a probable loss of boat and lives sometime in the future? I too do not want over-regulation, but on the other hand, it seems you can go to sea in a bath-tub without restraint. Any ideas on what, if anything I might do?
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why was the boat unsound ? was it leaking or falling apart ?
didnt you take your own life jacket , the one you trust !
were you sailing at night and then needed lights ?
speed/log depth are nice but not absolutely necessary ,
did the vhf work ? , - no need for idle chit chat .
and not everyone keeps a detailed log of every trip made .

so i would let the chap get on with sailing his way and learn from his own mistakes .
 
Seakindly said:
I recently helped an owner as crew on a long passage. I was alarmed to discover the boat was unsound, with no rescue or recovery kit, no mast head lights, no speed, log, depth or recent charts and seamanship that concerned me ie no log kept, VHF never used. In fact, comprehensively dire.
Click to expand...

Heavens - we resemble that boat :eek:
Better not go to sea again :rolleyes:

Guapa:
- No rescue or recovery kit - the plan is to stay on the boat
- Masthead lights 'iffy' - they might work sometimes. Bow & stern do work though, as does steaming light.
- Speed + log - wouldn't trust it. Will get round to calibrating it eventually.
- Charts 3 years old - is that 'recent'?
- Don't keep a log.
- VHF: Was there a need to use it? We never used to when we're on a mooring. Now we're in a marina we use VHF to call the lock - that's it.

Whilst you were out with your friend, did you:
- hit anything?
- loose anyone over the side?
- get lost?
If the answer to all three above questions is 'No', what is your problem?

Every skipper is different. To call another boat/skipper unsound or demonstrating dire seamanship just because he does not match your standards sounds a bit ...
 
thats me

got from the Iow to Wells

taken me three years so far

no mastehead light

no safety procedure

no log kept - except on film

I have a hand held VHF - only used it twice in three years

third part insurance only

aaaagh! I am going to die

Dylan
 
perils of stone-casting

Fair comment and wise, candid counsel. I thought it was risky to ask :( Responses seem a bit defensive though. Completely accept we all take calculated risks, and many prefer a simple approach to sailing in familiar waters. No argument either with the sentiment that it's better to drown doing something you love than falling off a ladder doing pointless DIY. Accept too the implied message that raising this says something about me and my cautious approach. That said, this was an 8 day offshore leg of a journey and the next crew will be young and inexperienced. The comments I made about the boat and kit were understated and by way of illustration. Having seen things from the owners point of view, is it possible for a moment to see things from mine? If indeed a boat and skipper are desperately unsafe, what then? With the happy absence of 'official' regulation and interference, does that not imply we should challenge each other a bit when needed? What does self-regulation mean in practice? Clearly a single-hander takes what risks they feel comfortable with and will live with the consequences. If they take on crew (who might be my teenage son or yours) then it feels a bit different. My original question was not about how to 'report' this very 'near-miss' but whether indeed to just let it go, or perhaps to get this bloke down the pub at the next opportunity and try to talk it through. I suppose the consensus is that I let it go.
 
Seakindly said:
My original question was not about how to 'report' this very 'near-miss' but whether indeed to just let it go, or perhaps to get this bloke down the pub at the next opportunity and try to talk it through. I suppose the consensus is that I let it go.
Click to expand...
I do think you are being overly judgemental. Maybe he doesn't know a different way so I'm with MoodySabre - invite him to go sailing with you or just leave it. 'Preaching' to him in the bar could be taken as an affront however you broach the subject (I wouldn't be very comfortable if someone buttonholed me in the bar about that sort of thing).

For the record, I fall somewhere between both stalls. Boat has plenty of gear - safety, rescue, comms, windsurfing and fishing. Most of it works. I would like to keep a log more often, but somehow only seem to get round to it for longer offshore legs, and then it tends to peter (sp?) out when we get near our destination....
 
aha - 8 days long passage - different matter

I guess everyones definition of a long passage is different

for some its a 40 mile hop along the coast - for others its the Atlantic

But eight days of continuous sailing without lights or plans does seem a tad risky

I take back all I say

Although I guess I would have asked a few questions before stepping aboard for such a large undertaing.

D
 
One of the reasons I like our sport/past-time/hobby/obsession (call it what you will) is the lack of regulation in our over-regulated country. Anyone has the "right" to go to sea in whatever craft and however it is equipped.

However, and there is always an however, I would add two points.

1) Will your lack of equipment endanger other people? Especially thinking of the RNLI here.

2) Just imagine what the Daily Mail would make of such a story if you did get into trouble.

I tend to the ethos of the old round the world yachtsmen before VHF etc etc and think it would be the done thing to drown like a gentleman and not endager others!
 
Macnorton

* No rescue or recovery kit - just Lifejackets (which I hope never to put on) and a tender.
* Mast lights -work when they like (can always turn cabin lights on!).
* Speed log - cant be bothered to go over the side and clean the impellor every time I use the boat.
* Charts 1997 - The sands move with every tide so why bother with new ones that are wrong when they are printed.
* Don't keep a formal log, just have a note-pad to hand - I know where I am and where Ive been.
* VHF: x2 - If I wanted to chat I'd stay in the clubhouse.
* Depth guage and compass are A1 and are used continually.

But I just coast hop, if i crossed the Alantic it would be a different story.
 
Depends on the man as much as the boat...

All the rescue gear in the world won't help a skipper who makes poor decisions. But putting to sea at all could have been the poor decision here.

If the guy knows his boat, knows sailing waters etc then I'd not be inclined to judge. Not all navigation is done on paper. And not all 'safety equipment' is labelled as such: eg a big anchor and a good bilge pump!
 
I'm brand new to this game so perhaps I shouldn't be sticking my oar in but here goes anyway.

I think the same sort of behaviour you'd expect from a sensible bloke on land should apply at sea. Perhaps the conduct should be considerably more akin to what you'd hope to find among airmen and bungee jump operators than among many South African minibus taxi drivers.

And if you don't know what thats like you've been blessed.
 
thanks folks

Thanks for ideas folks. Gave me something to think about. Just for the record - I quite agree with all those confident contributors who take sensible decisions about what kit they really need. If I drew up a list about my own boat I'd come up with something similar, esp. for east-coast cruising. I have been on a lot of boats and I'm with you all on the inevitable compromises. This was, all the same, a quite different situation altogether. It was an offshore passage for over a week including very busy unfamiliar waters. The items I mentioned were few, of many more real problems. You are right. I won't sail that boat again and I should have asked many more questions. My only reason in risking this thread ( I absolutely accept it makes me sound like a self righteous busybody-perhaps so) is that other, young much less experienced crew will be stepping aboard in the weeks and months ahead and I find myself in the position of not being able to influence that at all. It's a sobering thought.
 
Seakindly said:
Thanks for ideas folks. .
Click to expand...

But don't let it put you (or anyone) off trying to pass on knowledge to others in the future.

As a newbie, I'm very grateful for any advice, unsolicited or otherwise. When starting out how do you know what you do know, or don't know, or don't know you don't know...:confused: :) And it may be that you've been getting by with bad or lazy habits for years - until someone points it out.

Everyone here is capable of having a conversation and noone is obliged to take any advice (as I have proved! :o)

Don't know what the answer is though regarding your concerns for inexperienced crew going aboard - they proably won't know what questions to ask if they are not given a safety brief - so that is a dilema as you say.
 
You, Seakindly, say that a young and inexperienced crew will be boarding the vessel in the future.
Is this crew hired, under training or similar?

If the vessel is being used for business rather than purely pleasure then it needs to meet the coding requirements.

The MCA would be most interested in any failure to meet the minimum requirements.

The MCA are using a light touch at the moment with the small boat end of things but where somebody takes passengers (of one form or the other)onboard they are beginning to look long and hard.

Contact the Walton office for advice. The surveyors are all experienced Master Mariners and in many cases sailors of many years so they know the score and are more Dixon than the Bill in their approach.
 
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