Bobc
Well-Known Member
I ma be wrong on this (so please correct me if I am), but I think the right or way boat has to "sail towards the next mark", so if they bear away such that they are no longer deemed to be doing so, it is a foul.
Americas Cup - thrilling racing at last
- Thread starter dunedin
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I ma be wrong on this (so please correct me if I am), but I think the right or way boat has to "sail towards the next mark", so if they bear away such that they are no longer deemed to be doing so, it is a foul.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Well you said correct you...
There is no such thing as "sailing towards the next mark" The closest thing in the rules would be "proper course" which is not relevant here.
The rule in question is 16.2 which says.
Normal match racing deletes this rule, and a nice spot of hunting is part of the game. After all it's only one on one, so have at it! So as long as port can continue to keep clear, then Starboard has done no wrong.
However.... I understand that the Cup has put 16.2 back in. Which makes sense with the sort of closing speeds they have. On that basis, it's pretty tough to see why that incident wasn't a foul.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
My understanding was that it wasn't a foul because 16.2 was actually adhered to. Oracle basically didn't dip enough at the beginning to clear their stern and ETNZ took advantage of that. Presumably Ray Davis at the back of the boat had clear sight of Oracle and where its bows were pointing.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. I was indeed thinking of the "proper course" rule.
garvellachs
Well-Known Member
Oracle needs to do something different to be competitive? If I was Ben A I think I'd look at getting up the windward leg with a minimum of tacks rather than engaging in tacking duals. The tide is maybe a knot different from side to side - does the tide really matter so much if several tacks can be avoided by using the whole course? I reckon Oracle's speed builds up to at least that of the Kiwis' but they are slow getting through the wind. At least they may then stay in touch.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
That is the way I heard it explained.
Because Oracle weren't sailing a course to dip clearly behind TNZ they could dial it down as much as they liked.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
I think Oracle is simply slower on the beat - even when TNZ has been clear ahead on leg 3 they have been able to extend their lead. Oracle seem to have a marginal advantage on the downwind legs, but not enough to counter TNZs advantage
I think the best Oracle can hope for is that the conditions will change to make them more competitive
flaming
Well-Known Member
I don't buy that OR is as fast in a straight line. The Kiwis rounded Mark 2 significantly behind and they both drag raced to the right, but at the first cross the Kiwis were close enough to have to duck, and at the second cross were ahead. That's just a faster boat.
Incidentally that was a big negative to the cats. in my opinion. If that 1st cross had been monos, you'd have seen a dump tack from Oracle, right on top of them, and a lot more engagement. There's absolutely no way the cats can tack that close to each other, the other is going so much faster that they'd just blow straight through the lee and pass.
flaming
Well-Known Member
That makes sense, hadn't thought of that!
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I find the words 'upwind' and 'downwind' with these beasts slightly confusing. The things are so fast that they always look like they're sailing to windward because their apparent wind at that speed seems to be close to close-hauled. I suppose on the boats you might see a difference, but on the telly it's not really apparent (ba-boom!)
Iain C
Well-Known Member
I'm just starting to actually feel sorry now for OTUSA. You know that feeling when you accidentally run over a bunny rabbit despite valiant attempts to miss it and you feel the thud of inevitability folowed by the sight of it rapidly disappearing in your rear view mirror as it cartwheels into the verge still trying bravely to hop, and your eyes narrow and you hiss through your teeth...yeah, that rather horrible sickening feeling.
Still...GO KIWIS!!!!!!!!!
Ben must have split loyalties now. We know he doesnt like losing/being angry, but they brought him on too late to make much of a difference, so he can walk away going "not really my problem" when the inevitable happens in 3 races time. However, with every OTUSA loss, he must also know that he is one step closer to skippering a British flagged challenge in a class in AC35 in Aukland that doesn't need a gazillionaire at the head of the team to make it competitive...
Still...GO KIWIS!!!!!!!!!
Ben must have split loyalties now. We know he doesnt like losing/being angry, but they brought him on too late to make much of a difference, so he can walk away going "not really my problem" when the inevitable happens in 3 races time. However, with every OTUSA loss, he must also know that he is one step closer to skippering a British flagged challenge in a class in AC35 in Aukland that doesn't need a gazillionaire at the head of the team to make it competitive...
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Maybe a bit more weight up front would help.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
I shouldn't think Ben is too concerned. As far as I can see it, he's only on the team because they didn't want another team using him and he's only on the boat now because they're getting desperate.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
I wonder who TNZ have lined up as challenger for AC35 - seems we are close to finding out.
I'm interested to see what they put in place - whether they go back to monohulls or stick with the cats.
One of the problems with the cats is that it seems to be all about the boat, and little scope to steal a victory in a slower boat - that makes most of the series very one sided and so not a good spectacle
flaming
Well-Known Member
Worth a new thread in its own right, but my money is on Luna Rossa as the challenger of record, and monos.
If not monos, then it will be a 60 foot version of these, possibly without the wingsail, and designed to foil from the off.
But I think monos are most likely simply based on the geography of Auckland, I don't know where they'd physically put a bunch of foiling wingsailed cats!
stoker_3rd_class
New Member
As previously stated Rule 16.2 is in the rules for the AC, but it is worded differently from the standard RRS!
16.2 When sailing to a mark that is to windward, a starboard-tack yacht shall not bear away to
a course that is below her proper course and more than 60 degrees from the true wind
direction if at that moment the port-tack yacht that is keeping clear by sailing a course to
pass astern of her has to immediately change course to continue keeping clear.
That "60 degrees" bit would seem to indicate that as long as they don't bear away to more than 60 degrees to the true wind then they are OK.
In yesterdays coverage they had a little article on the off the water jury, who make most of the decisions, they are using all the boat data to work out whether or not a penalty should be upheld or not. It seems it would be very clear to these guys whether NZ bore away to more than 60 or not. Having said all that it's still likely that Oracle didn't dip enough in the first place!
A1Sailor
...
I've actually been very impressed with the coverage - they manage to explain stuff in a way that landlubbers might understand. It would be good if they could display the yachts' VMGs, though.
bbg
Well-Known Member
They do. When they show numbers in the top corners the third number down is VMG. They don't show it very often, though b
boguing
Well-Known Member
Oracle looks a bit bow down most of the time to my eye. Hard to see a good reason for that when it increases the odds of catching waves.
DJE
Well-Known Member
They have to pre-set the "elevators" on the rudder foils before the start of the race and correct the trim by tilting the main foils. Don't know why but it seems to me that an adjustable elevator would give much better control of pitch angle for much less effort.