Am I over GPS'd?

iangrant

iangrant

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Am I over GPS\'d?

I've a laptop three hand helds (two garmin one other type) one main ship PC linked to the main DGPS, should I use paper charts as well?

Ian

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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

I have a similar setup - think I'm maybe a GPS unit short of you but I just keep a paper chart out in case I have a system failure. I do keep a log unless just meandering locally then it seems to reduce to
08:30 hrs - Engine On -
11:30 hrs - Arrived .....
I can't get involved in the purist argument about the erosion of skills by not doing 'proper navigation' - I just think we have moved onto new sets of skills.
I can still double the angle on the bow to work out my distance off and my maths is still sufficient to be able to do height and distance calculations - perhaps they are rustier than they used to be but I'm quicker with the mouse and quicker at keying in Lat/Long positions to the GPS.
Sit back and wait for the 'Ah but what happens to you when the power goes down' viewpoint now.

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Claymore
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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

Think it depends what you're doing. If your staying in home waters, say the Solent with good pilotage knowledge then you rarley need to consult a paper chart.

For pastures new, yes without a doubt you should have a paper chart. You've experienced a total engine mount failure, how likely is that? Can you imagine a filthy night when, closing an unfamiliar refuge, your chartplotter and PCs go down. Makes me shudder to imagine that I didn't have at least a chart and a torch to hand.

I'm not even talking total power failure, least I get Claymore'd! Paper charts need no power, no software or device to read and are virtually indesctructible. Until someone comes up with a better idea, they'll still enjoy stowage space onboard.

regards
Tom




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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

I'd put it this way: you spend a fortune on accessories for your boat, electronic and otherwise. You pay a lot for your mooring, for insurance, for engine servicing. Even if having to resort back to charts is massively unlikely, surely £15 for a piece of paper that is your ultimate back up device if everything else goes kaput isn't too big a price to pay? I've had too many things that are never supposed to go wrong, go wrong on a boat to ever rely on any one thing if its the difference between being safe or not.

I've just reverted from a PalmPilot back to filofax, so maybe I'm just a luddite...



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Space onboard

Tom - just out of interest and not being critical of your opinion - how do Ellen Macarthur et al go on. I assume they just use their laptop/gps intruments?

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Claymore
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Re: Space onboard

Reading the latest issue of Seahorse there's an article on how digital communication in racing yachts has changed over the years. I think the answer is that they have a degree of backup and latency that you're not likely to replicate on a cruising yacht. (e.g. the example gives radio communications via two seperately wired Iridium sat-phones, a back-up Mini-M for if the Iridiums go down, ham radio, etc.)

Last time I did any 'serious' racing was a couple of years back and we relied on chart plotters. But there was always a waterproof roll of charts stuffed somewhere at the back of the boat. We never used them, but they were there...

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Re: Space onboard

I think you're right, but let's face facts here- Ellen doesn't do closing unfamiliar ports without massive shore support. I'm a little less confident of my shore team, even if I knew where to find them.

Tom

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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

are you over gps'ed? probably, given the reliability of modern electronics. if it works out of the box, it tends to work all the time. mind you, most likely you will find, should you need to use the handhelds, that at leat 2 have flat batteries anyway. but since you've got them, use them

computers? well i'm a bit of a nerd, but i havent got a computer on board because i would still have to buy paper charts, and yorkshire thrift (no, its not meanness)cant conceive of effectively paying twice. in any case, if i didnt navigate, what would i do on passage since helming bores me to tears?

i wouldnt chose a pc if i were going electronic - you need nav data in front of the wheel. what is the use of a continuously updated position that is only available when you can get someone to take the helm? and pc's arent waterproof but i believe some plotters are.

incidentally, why dgps? a modern gps with waas is accurate to a couple of meters anyway. are you surveying?

must say i had to smile at the "pay a lot for the mooring, the engine servicing, and the electronics". how the other half live!

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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

You could do with another plotter!

We have a 10" B & W plotter at the chart table that runs on a WAAS/WGNOS GPS but if that goes down it can also run from a Shipmate GPS by flicking a switch. The Shipmate also runs the Yeoman paper plotter. Either of these two is also interfaced with the instruments, radar and autopilot. Then in the cockpit we have a colour Navman plotter with built in WAAS/EGNOS GPS, this one is completely standalone, not connected to any instruments or autopilot, and also runs from a separate battery bank ( we have 2 service battery banks and 1 engine battery).

Believe it or not on our main cruise this year 2 out of 3 GPSs were playing up! The one feeding the B&W plotter went totally and has been replaced by a WAAS/EGNOS one fitted today. The old Shipmate was taking up to 2hrs to find a fix from cold, probably needs a new internal battery to keep the satellite almanac. The Navman was bought just before our cruise because I had a feeling the others were going to be a problem (had shown intermittent faults), but also because it makes a very good nav display as well as the chart display, visible from anywhere in the cockpit.

We do have a laptop, with facility to read C-Map, but not connected to a GPS. I don't trust it at home let alone on the boat!

Our main pilot is an ST6001 but there is a spare ST4000 wheelpilot virtually ready for use, just needs the drive unit to be fitted and plugged in, the control head is in place.

Belts and braces!

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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

WAAS, or EGNOS in Europe is actually satellite differential GPS instead of land based, so accuracy of the two are similar. EGNOS is working on a trial basis I think at present, our Navman runs on it but occasionall warns that it has lost the signal. Our Raymarine WAAS/EGNOS will NOT work on differential until EGNOS is declared usable (2004) after which Raymarine will advise owners how to switch it on via the plotter or control head.

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Re: Space onboard

Claymore,

Going back to your Ellen McArthur question: I just checked my DVD of the last Volvo Race and the first 'internal' scene from any of the yachts shows Mark Rudiger at a nav station that looks like something out of a space-rocket its so high-tech: and he's drawing lines with a slide rule on a paper chart (Admiralty I'd guess from the colours)....

Having 'adequate charts' is a regulation under RORC racing rules, and the Special Regulations relating to safety specifically note that charts may not be 'solely electronic'.
 
Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

In my view you should use paper charts as well. I would also go so far as to say that unless using official (eg UK Hydrographic Office or NIMA) electronic charts taken directly from the nation's hydrographic database then one should not use an electronic chart at all unless the course to be sailed (especially if in pilotage) has been validated on it by oneself as being clear of dangers or free from positional error by comparison with the same course plotted on a paper chart.

John

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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

Think any boat that goes to sea without a paper chart of some sort is being imprudent!! I've got a chsrt plotter + cartridge h/h + all the paper charts

<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
 
Re: Space onboard

the electronic v paper chart argument is very odd- they are different.

Big piece of paper for planning can't be beaten whether on land or at sea. Likewise, paper for small scale stuff gives lots of rules and regs and info, which again won't appear on lectronix. Other bits of paper give other info - almanacs and so on, and on needs all these.

the electronics can't be beat for "where are we" and "how are we doing" questions. The paper can't be beaten for "where and which way shall we go" - big planning - and for small-scale detail - planning and pilotage again.

I must say that i have actually been in a squall which ripped a chart out of my hand and over the stern - whereas the electronics has never (totally, including the battery stuff) given up so completely. Anyone who does depend solely on paper charts might give some thought to having a paper backup - another set of charts!

I too am heavily tooled up with gps and more gps. Quite acceptable to use these more than paper in in familar waters, and it is there that the overlap exists. Less planning needed to go to that pub we always go to, so less real need for chartified research and planning.

But I don't believe anyone would (or should) go to a new crusing area, or a new bit of coast even within familar waters, though, and not get hold of a paper chart. Or two.

Ocean crusing, i would probably get hold of a sextant and learn how to use it, partly for something to do. Also, it would look dead good (especially if the gps was erm also working).

oh, and to answer the question above, nope, you can't have too many gps's, and you can't have too many charts either. Unless you sink with the weight.

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and what iffing

Agree - there are two major advantages in a paper chart for me. The first is that you can do your 'what iffing' with pencil, dividers and rubber. i cannot find any way of doing this on a chart plotter. The second is that it is much easier to identify a light etc from a paper chart as you don't have to do all the zooming etc. I am very happy if electronics tell me where I am - I can then use the paper to decide what to do.

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Re: Am I over GPS\'d?

One point which seems to have been overlooked here and that is all your GPS receivers get their information from ONE source, which is bad practice.
First principles, as taught to MN cadets and RYA YMs include "always back up whatever system you are using with information from another source". You should also keep a separate record from an electronic one and always carry paper charts and almanacs of suitable coverage. The Royal Navy and Merchant Navy do.

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