Am I just naive?

G

Guest

Guest
I recently made enquiries about berth availabilty at a different marina and was told they were full with a waiting list (what recession).I asked if any berth holders might let thier berth privately and have been offered a space.
It's held as an annual berth but the marina say I must pay the license holder the rate for his 9.8m boat and pay the extra for my 11.5m boat to them(it's a 12 m berth).

Is this usual??

I realise the marina want to maximise income and discourage profiteering license holders from sub-letting but ''cake and eating'' spring to mind!
Or am I just naive?
 

luckyjimbo

New member
Joined
13 Feb 2002
Messages
74
Visit site
They must all sit round a big expensive veneered table, and try and work out how to extract the green shields in my wallet. You must "name and shame them, please".
Regards James
 

BarryD

New member
Joined
10 Sep 2001
Messages
1,388
Location
Bathtub
Visit site
Sorry Doug - IMHO it makes sense to me. The berth holder has a contract with the marina for his 9.8m boat, you want to put an 11.5m boat in there. The existing holder would profit if you paid him the 11.5m rate, whilst the marina is incurring the extra 1.7m of costs (dur like there are any <G>).

I think this really raises the old question of why am I charged for the boat LOA when LWL would be fairer - or length (beam?) of the finger even better. Given the fact that you have got round the waiting list I'd be happy.

FWIW - Make sure you have a back to back legal contract with the current berth holder. If they cancel their contract or stop paying the marina (assuming its monthly) then you are exposed. Also consider how electricity is charged and act accordingly.

All IMHO, FWIW and NWGOI of course.

Barry
 
G

Guest

Guest
Doh stupid me.
I'd fugoten all de extra costs dayed incur ;-)
 

robp

Active member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,891
Visit site
Doug, I have to say that I agree with Barry. Leaving aside whether or not it's worth the money. If they won't let the other guy put an 11.5M boat on that berth for the price of a 9.8M, why would they let you? Plus, other annual berth holders would then be disadvantaged. They probably don't even have to let him sub let.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: It\'s a fair cop.

OK so its 2 to 1, I'll pay up.
Must remember not to tow the tender in astern though.... even beam on thats an extra £300 ;-))
 

tcm

...
Joined
11 Jan 2002
Messages
23,958
Location
Caribbean at the moment
Visit site
UK v Med : 3 cheers for MDL et al!!

I have looked into this a bit, and experience long-term renting and buying berths in uk and med.

In the UK, you rent from the marina operator. They seem to prefer holding the lease themselves and subletting on an annual basis. I suppose, if they have that policy and have a 9.8m boat charged by length, then it's fine to charge extra for your boat if the current holder is prepared to stand aside. Otherwise a short-boat owner could nip round and get us all an annual contract, then we cram in a bigger boat. And, altho it seems mean from the marina, the 9.8m boat owner isn't complaining, as he's geting a berth at the "9.8m" rate. He doesn't have to pay at the 10m rate, or try and jam the thing in an 8m berth, or pay at the 12m rate cos that's all there is. It's charged at the rate of "putting your boat in the marina" which is what you want to do. So you should pay, imho.

In the med, it doesn't work like this. Most berths are owned by indivuals, not the marina. They might be owner-occupied, or they might not. If you rent, it's yours. You can fit a boat in that width including fenders, and that's that. If you want to put a dinghy in there, or even keep it empty,it's the same rate, and you've paid. So this makes more sense. Sort of. But not really.

The med method lightly falls apart when it comes to the good of all boaters, as opposed to individuals using marinas as boat parks. In the UK, if you ain't there, then they'll put another boat there. On your way out to sea, they'll often ask if you're out for a day or back that night. If you come back unexpectedly, you can be put somewhere else, anywhere. You get no cash this way, but every single unoccupied spot in the marina can be used every single night. ok, ok, you've paid for the year so there's an argument that that you should get a cut of the overnight rental. But then there's the staff to manage the whole game and so on, and you do (usually) get money back if you stay away for some months at a time. With premier, for example it was 75% of the prorata per annum if you stayed away for 3months . Note that you get this even if they don't use the berth.

Now contrast with the med, again. The renter has the right to that berth for a year. So when he goes of for a trip, does he release it? Not a chance - the owner would get the extra rental, not him, so soddit. Supposing it's the berth owner whose boat is in there? Likewise, unlikely, partly because they have to trot all the way over there to the capitainerie to sign a blimmin form, and they'd only get a proportion of the rental actually taken. Sometimes, they don't even get anything for the first three days, so they release the berth for the month and get sod all back, cos the marina staff carefully shuffle boats so nobody stays in the same berth for more than 3 nights - the "3-day shuffle".

The net result of this is a total logjam in the Med, with empty marinas being announced as "full" to casual visitors. Try going to Monaco at 3pm in the afternoon in summer as I did, with enough space for several long tankers. Non, monsieur, complet. All rich as heck, the berthholders don't need the money, and prefer the convenience of being able to go anywhere, anytime. They'll have a berth in Monaco, another in the caribbean, perhaps another in the balearics, one of them empty all the time. The marina is happy (they charge maintenance/service to cover staff) cos the answer to "do you have a berth" is usually "no", and they can run a big marina with hundreds of spaces with only a few staff.

So, erm, sorry to have to say this, but three cheers for MDL and others!! They could make a quick buck by selling lots of long term leases, but by maximising return they can sell an annual contract and make even more money by overnight renting when you're out - freeing up spaces for visitors. They haven't sold them all, letting in investors who sublet to one person annually for an easy no-hassle life.

If Uk marinas adopted a different model, you could well end up with a med system in the uk. You'd all have a space, pay the rate for the space, but would have no bloody where to go. As it stands in the uk, you have a space, and there's good incentive to be made by the marina asking if your space is empty tonight, and manpower to manage it

There's tons of spaces in the med, but the business model is crap. Case for Mr Kinnock, our transport commissioner to get involved, of course, but he won't understand any of this and it's only rich gits who have boats, and they've all got engines, you know. Hence no more marinas. Hence it will get worse.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: UK v Med : 3 cheers for MDL et al!!

Oh yeah,I thank god for them everyday.
By the way who do you work for? ;-)

/
 

JamesS

New member
Joined
12 Oct 2001
Messages
311
Visit site
Actually, this doesn't sound too bad - at least for the original berth holder.

Most marinas stipulate that they are able to let the berth whenever the berth is unoccupied and without any payment to the original berth holder.
 

robp

Active member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,891
Visit site
Re: It\'s a fair cop.

I'm sure I remember something in my contract, in the dim and distant past, that allows for one tender up to 3 metres. I bet it's disappeared now! Spect if it were on davits, they'd get you! I'd better just keep quiet...
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: UK v Med : 3 cheers for MDL et al!!

tcm's post is excellent. Med marinas do vary a bit from country to country, but it seems to me broadly as he describes it.

The worst, in my experience, is Antibes. I believe Carlos (or his successor?) does occasionally sublet unofficially, but as he makes the rules. . . . .?

William Cooper
 

ccscott49

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2001
Messages
18,585
Visit site
Re: UK v Med : 3 cheers for MDL et al!!

Now, now Doug, He's right, most marinas, will not let you sublet your berth and I feel the charges are only fair. At least with the UK system you can find a berth, quite often.
 

MedMan

New member
Joined
24 Feb 2002
Messages
683
Location
UK
teall.name
Re: UK v Med

After 4 years in the Med my experience has, thankfully, been somewhat different to that of tcm. It is true that many berths are privately owned but, apart from a couple of marinas on the mainland coast of Italy, I have found the marina operators more than helpful in finding us a place for the night. True, we avoid marinas altogether whenever we can , especially in July and August, but the overall impression with which we are left is one of helpfullness and co-operation and prices well below those charged in the UK.

Happy sailing,

David
 

tcm

...
Joined
11 Jan 2002
Messages
23,958
Location
Caribbean at the moment
Visit site
Re: Carlo Perucci

Yes, he does! Botle of wine works wonders there, and it's only very recently that they relaxed the "cash only" rule and allowed a credit card. Madame Vincent remains the all-powerful Goddess of Antibes, however, but since she is suffering from an overdose of money she only works afternoons, and only some afternoons.
 
Top