Alternators - converting to LiFeP04

BruceK said:
Hi Vas, thanks for your comments. I am beginning to get sceptical about Sterling from the comments received
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I know when I frequented the Canalworld forum Stirling did not have the best reputation for both product and importantly after sales service/problem resolving etc.
 
vas said:
I recon a bit more studying with guys taking things apart and testing them would be nice. Careful as some of these guys have an axe to grind so not really giving ballanced and neutral reviews!
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So far this is all I can find that I trust.
PBO
Best lithium batteries: 12 powerful options for your boat tested


Incidently, why I want Lithium is as Charles put it, " I want to cane the ass out of it" (see below). The Formula in it's wisdom has 127 incandescent bulbs to start with. I mean each drawer has one. Got kids? Do they ever close anything? As for inverter use it's really for microwave or a quick halogen air fryer used briefly because kids eat funny. Can you say chicken ferkin nuggets again!!? What's wrong with pan fried steak? I'm getting tired of nursing and stressing when my battery bank shows 12.2V and Madam decides to switch the cockpit lighting on which then puts out enough light to see the boat clearly from 4 miles distant then tones it down with a dimmer switch that you could subsequently fry an egg on. It's a hard life being skipper in a day and age of entitlement. :eek:

 
prinex said:
I would give a call to this guys: https://integrelsolutions.com/ , essentially what you are trying to achieve but already worked out.
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I got quite excited until I did a very conservative self quote and this was for a boat my size 35 foot with it's current appliances and whatnots. I think their system is so OTT as to be a non starter.

However I will look into their tech and see why they think so much is required.

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On the trawler i had no air conditioning at anchor (in fact at all) and a diesel cookplate - the fridge was a standard 220v with an inverter. All lights LEDs (at the time they where shite so it was a bit dim). Power consumption measured with a Philippi Shunt-meter thing was 50A at 12V for 24h. So 600w each day. I had a petrol 2kw genset, it would charge 40A so I would switch it on then have a swim - that thing would smell like a feral hog. 1 Hour later all was done.

But it was a minimalistic solution. On the actual boat cookplates are electric, ladies want to use the hair dryer, all switches are permanently on as no one cares - so genset it is.

9kw a day seems the realistic usage if you have electric cookplates, turn on the aircon a bit, the usual stuff. I guess on larger boats the genset runs always (There was a Sanlorenzo 71 which had 2x20kw genset and 1x6kw genset. I imagined the 2x20kw where the "normal" genset and backup, while the 6kw was "night running" just to keep fridge etc running without too much noise).
 
BruceK said:
I got quite excited until I did a very conservative self quote and this was for a boat my size 35 foot with it's current appliances and whatnots. I think their system is so OTT as to be a non starter.

However I will look into their tech and see why they think so much is required.

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Same. I have reverse cycle aircon on my sports boat and to cross over the LifePo4 using one of the big names was circa £10k. Nonsense money. If I don’t use the a/c, my daily usage is around 100 amps. The whole thing is a con. The problem with ‘drop-in’ solutions is the built in BMS, it’s not up to the job and if you are worried about fire (as all boat owners should be), then to my mind, each installation needs to have one built. Then you are into cell balancing top & bottom etc etc.
my medical device company imports a lot of high quality kit from China, I can get 200amp drop in batts added to an already ordered container of kit for less than $200 each, getting it all to work and accept liability once here in the Uk is another matter. The margins suppliers are making is obscene. Master volt wants £5k for a 200amp unit, add in all of the ‘other’ things you need and your looking at £8k+ before fitting. These units use winston cells, I bet they can do the whole thing for $500 or less and that includes shipping.
 
This is topical, I have also been considering a change of house batteries to Lithium. I had been looking at these ones;

https://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/S12-135LFP.pdf

Same reasons as you really, the inverter is pointless at sea because anything you'd want to use, coffee machine, microwave etc are all approx 1000w and therefore will cane 100amps out of the battery. The only time I used it to power a kettle had all the overload lights flashing. I have a 1600w Victron charging system on board. The liepo4 batteries can take that kind of deep cycling where the Lead Acid can't. I haven't spoken to Victron yet to see if the unit is compatible with charging Lipo ie not overcharging or undercharging it! I'm only in the early stages. Rolls also do a 100amp battery which is a fair bit cheaper.

Cheers
Nito
 
Is not only the 100A draw for 1Kw. Even your humble fridge will bog your inverter - the issue is the when the motor of the fridge starts, the contacts are basically open. And this draws a TON of Ampere very briefly before it starts turning.
The same happens to the starter engine of your car only difference there is no inverter in the middle.
On the trawler once battieres would go down a bit you coud literally hear the fridge taking longer and longer to start (and it was a small fridge). I had 4 large forklift batteries, all togheter maybe 500 A/h or more (but they where used so not really 100%).
At the moment i have 12v fridges and 2x240Ah gel batteries and a charger. If someone wants to cook or warm up the water in the boiler or use the hair dryer is
genset time and that's the end of it. Same if we are somewhere at anchor - 2 hours genset and the day is saved.
Engines have each their own battery, genset also, there is a swith to connect them all togheter for starting the engines but it basically never happened.
32.000 UKp for a glorified alternator + batteries ...
 
For my setup I was thinking 2 of those Rolls 135ah batteries. Max discharge current is 100A each, so I presume this gives 200amp possible max discharge rate. I also have 12v fridges. We do have a generator for 240v but the sea cock for the underwater exhaust is a PITA to get to so it doesn't really get used. The current 2nr lead acid jobbies are 110ah each but max discharge will be pitiful.
 
prinex said:
Is not only the 100A draw for 1Kw. Even your humble fridge will bog your inverter - the issue is the when the motor of the fridge starts, the contacts are basically open. And this draws a TON of Ampere very briefly before it starts turning.
The same happens to the starter engine of your car only difference there is no inverter in the middle.
On the trawler once battieres would go down a bit you coud literally hear the fridge taking longer and longer to start (and it was a small fridge). I had 4 large forklift batteries, all togheter maybe 500 A/h or more (but they where used so not really 100%).
At the moment i have 12v fridges and 2x240Ah gel batteries and a charger. If someone wants to cook or warm up the water in the boiler or use the hair dryer is
genset time and that's the end of it. Same if we are somewhere at anchor - 2 hours genset and the day is saved.
Engines have each their own battery, genset also, there is a swith to connect them all togheter for starting the engines but it basically never happened.
32.000 UKp for a glorified alternator + batteries ...
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So, you make some interesting points, do I spend £10k on a new lithium battery set-up or £4K on a gennie??
 
Bruce, how about starting at the basics?
Assuming your VPs are running and this winter you're not taking legs, turbos, superchargers apart ( :p ), how about spending some time this winter to upgrade lighting and lower your consumption?
That's going to make some difference!
Just dont get the awful and awfully cheap led disk thingies with a few surface mounted leds, get something decent, or swap the whole fixture with a led designed one if you find cheap matching ones.
Then we can talk, but considering spending 3k or LifePO4 and paraphernalia and still have an inefficient lighting setup is not v.smart.
Didn't have time to check all the links you posted, not persuaded by most of them tbh. I'd prefer to follow the thread by Poey50 on PBO and go along the lines of these guys, sailaboutvic, poey, kelpie et all have already done it. Some experience is already there, wouldn't worry too much, actually I'd worry more on:
A. money spent
B. unknown BMS
if I went for a ready made solution.

Finally keep in mind 12V is rather harsh for 1kW + loads, too many amps. Too thick cables, too short runs and too good planning needed.
24V seems to be much more easy to plan and implement. FE, just had my anchient La Pavoni 1kW espresso machine on to have an espresso, run the grinder (200W) for 1 min or so, then the espresso machine for circa 4mins. SOC was 100% before, 98% after. Even the watermaker (1.8kW) will run for half an hour without issues midday in the summer with the solar at full blast. And that with nearing EOL 225Ah Trojans.

For the record a 3kva Victron Multiplus two 80lt 24V fridges and two laptops with 1.5-2.A@230V supplies means my average consumption is 120-140W@24V, not negligable by any means! Try to carefully estimate yours before you embark in this thing...

32k yeah, they're having a laugh!

V.
 
prinex said:
Is not only the 100A draw for 1Kw. Even your humble fridge will bog your inverter - the issue is the when the motor of the fridge starts, the contacts are basically open. And this draws a TON of Ampere very briefly before it starts turning.
The same happens to the starter engine of your car only difference there is no inverter in the middle.
On the trawler once battieres would go down a bit you coud literally hear the fridge taking longer and longer to start (and it was a small fridge). I had 4 large forklift batteries, all togheter maybe 500 A/h or more (but they where used so not really 100%).
At the moment i have 12v fridges and 2x240Ah gel batteries and a charger. If someone wants to cook or warm up the water in the boiler or use the hair dryer is
genset time and that's the end of it. Same if we are somewhere at anchor - 2 hours genset and the day is saved.
Engines have each their own battery, genset also, there is a swith to connect them all togheter for starting the engines but it basically never happened.
32.000 UKp for a glorified alternator + batteries ...
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Like you we use our geny .
I added extra sound proofing using that adhesive lead stuff for cars inside it’s existing box a few years ago .
Also added another extra layer of marine sound proofing on the ER ceiling .
Its exhaust is at the stern and has a fan like water deflector with sends the water vertically down the hull as opposed to shooting horizontally out and splashing .
So all in all it pretty quiet .
This means there’s no resistance to running it .
All electric boat with std two banks of 2x 180 ah .
Two fridges , but they cut out on 24 v if that voltage drops .Led lights .
Pretty good gauges to monitor everything.I tend to run the geny @ anchor during the day every 4 hours .
Takes ( according to the gauges ) approx 30-40 mins to drop back to trickle less than 2/3 amps being stuffed in .
I can see how much each bank is being stuffed .
Engines negligible. Domestic 2x 180 can be up to 60 for 5 mins then floats down to 40 ah then after 1/2 hour to 2/3 amps = assume charged .
Its a Dolphin smart charger of 80 ah max .
A night @ anchor because the fridges will turn off below x volts I have no worries of killing the Dom bank .
How ever @ anchor I am usually up by 6/7 am and the first thing is turn the geny on .
Then a morning swim :D .

Additionally ( more so theses days- hotter summers ? ) we run the geny with the main engines while cruising to power up the air con .The charger will be off of course as the mains are on .
This means when we arrive at a port and berth the interior of the boat is already cool .

Again @ anchor with the geny running for it hr its coffee time or cook top time or charge device time .

All seems very simple and low tech and Uber reliable and safe compared to what’s been proposed thus far .

Its not cost me a penny on top the initial boat buy in price either . Instant 220V .

The only safety issue I guess is CO fumes if the exhaust of the geny leaks while folks are down below .So we have CO detectors in each space . Arguably mobo ers should have theses anyhow in case of main engine exhaust leaks ? CO sinks it’s heavier than air .


Generator , Air-con ( with reverse cycle heating ) ,place to store a tender and for the Med passerelle.If you want to spend extended times float , the boat ought to have should have .

Sorry I just do not buy into all this tech - batt , solar , inverter , digiplex + more gobblegook stuff .Also seemingly sounds THE expensive route .

Enjoying listening ? :D.
 
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each to their own PF, but silence is silence. Not disrupted every 4h for an hour of geny.
That would be simply unacceptable for me.
If you like it fine, I'd get out of boating if I had to feel the gen engine running. And plz don't tell us that you dont hear it, I'm sitting now on board and through the water, I can feel the geny on the boat 50m away (only two of us in the bay tonight!)

solar and an mppt is not high tech, it's nothing! Finding the space to place the panels is another issue though.
 
vas said:
still have an inefficient lighting setup is not v.smart.
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No it isn't. I pull the bulbs out and Madam throws a wobbly and puts them back in. When I looked at replacing all the bulbs the good LED's (i.e. the ones that dont cause interference) that matched my bulbs were about 20 quid a piece. I replaced those that were hammered the most with LED but too many to replace all and frankly access to some is so difficult I fear I'd break their enclosures. (old plastic lenses) and they are unobtanium. Excuses, excuse I know but I want some inverter output as stated above and I dont want to stress about caning the hell out of lead acid types and ruining their capacity. When all is said and done I want to redistribute weight and not worry about the batteries. I know the setup of Lithium is painstaking but after that the batteries are incredibly resilient and frankly the future. Why replace with PB now and know that in 4 years, if I am lucky, that I'll be installing LifePO4 anyway? They're good for a projected 20 years. It's a no brainer in my book.
 
vas said:
I'd prefer to follow the thread by Poey50 on PBO and go along the lines of these guys, sailaboutvic, poey, kelpie et all have already done it. Some experience is already there, wouldn't worry too much, actually I'd worry more on:
A. money spent
B. unknown BMS
if I went for a ready made solution.
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These guys effectively built their own. They have the knowledge and know how not to fluff it with an oversight or mistake. All their components are unknown to me but with a drop in solution I can at least assume it's not a Fred in his shed affair which would be me and that what I buy will perform within the advertised parameters and not simply blow up when I switch it on for the first time.
I mean we assume their BMS is not up to scratch but frankly that is a harder pill to swallow because it's a tailored design. They set the parameters, you follow them. If they say dont charge above 13.8 volts or whatever and no float charge, 60 amps max charge, 100 amp max discharge. You do that. I suspect most if not all failures were by people that also did not read the manual and just dumped them in replacement of PB batteries and thought job done.
If my charger, inverter, alternator, solar MPPT charger etc are all configured to be within or meet the required technical specification for a balanced system I do not fear a LifePO4 battery drop in from a respected dealer. I'm not going to run a 3kW inverter when the battery bank can only support 2kW and hope the inverter recognises a battery drop out. Why would I? They (reputable dealers) all have reputations and liabilities to keep and I'm sure they have suitable quality assurance tests.
 
vas said:
each to their own PF, but silence is silence. Not disrupted every 4h for an hour of geny.
That would be simply unacceptable for me.
If you like it fine, I'd get out of boating if I had to feel the gen engine running. And plz don't tell us that you dont hear it, I'm sitting now on board and through the water, I can feel the geny on the boat 50m away (only two of us in the bay tonight!)

solar and an mppt is not high tech, it's nothing! Finding the space to place the panels is another issue though.
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Depends on the install .
I am lucky I know that .This is how I know .In the Sun Seeker the Fisher panda was mounted on a flat surface at one side on the ER at fwd end .Stern drives obviously at the rear transom .
First boat I know nothing “ they ought to know how to build a boat “

It resonated like hell .
First from the flat shelf a glassed in piece of wood .
Second from the actual hull side it was 1 cm away from the side .
Third in the rear cabin the cupboards even though the other side of the ER bulkhead acted like an amplifier .Even full of clothes and stuff .
It had a “ super silent “ exhaust kit which kinda helped I guess but the water was ejected straight out about 1 ft above the WL horizontally .
So Yep fits your description.
50 M you could hear it esp the trickle .

I used this as a mule .
Made a vertical water ejector which solved the trickle .
Researched all this resonance stuff you know flat wooden surfaces , air space vol etc .
Fitted extra stuff under the unit to stop air resonating on its wood plinth , re lined the wardrobes in the aft cabin to stop them becoming amplifiers etc etc .Sort of 1/2 reduced it but it still was crap and would not fit my never mind your requirements.

How ever with this one it’s fitted in the midline over the V at the rear of the ER twixt two 700 L tanks .Imagine the sound absorbing of diesel ?

The rest I have mentioned .
It was inherently good to start with now it better to the extent when swimming round the boat I only hear it next to the air intakes . There is a tiny bit of splash noise .
The splash noise is so small I have to physically go to the stern to eye ball water ejecting at start up - you know the impellers ok .
You can’t hear the splash ….not sure that’s a good thing ?
You can sleep anywhere with just a background gentle hum .If it’s windy wind noise obliterates the geny .
You forget it’s running .
 
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