Alternators - converting to LiFeP04

[BruceK]

So my standard KAD Valeo alternator is very likely to overheat or dump while travelling at low speeds trying to charge lithium batteries.

• I dont want to change from a Single V alternator so I am restricted to around 70A output
• I dont want to keep a lead acid battery for DC-DC charging the lithium

• I do want a alternator and charge regulator based system

At the moment all my research has been based around a Balmar 6 series 70 amp alternator with an external MC-614-H regulator and their SR200 battery monitor display because it allows for application based programming rather than trying to program the regulator with a bloody magnetic screwdriver.

Total cost of that system will be around 1k GBP

The batteries coincidently will be 2 x Sterling 12V 120A/hr units in parallel with a max continuous charge rate of 80A/hr so a reasonably balanced system and they in turn will be linked to a Sterling 2500W Pro Combi S Pure Sine wave inverter which will push the total to 3k GBP

My question and worry is Balmar dont seem to have any UK agents and is there another local competing brand that can provide alternator solutions to lithium charging.
In addition is having a externally regulated alternator the best way to go. I notice Sterling do a alternator to battery charger but it's not rated to include lithium types.
Victron seem stuck on DC-DC or buck chargers but do any of these methods actually protect the alternator?

I've read so much about converting to Lithium batteries but nobody seems to have really broached the subject of charging them by alternator.

 

[ARE]

Are the Sterling batteries suitable for cranking the engine? Because most are not.

 

[BruceK]

No, these are house batteries. There is no splitcharging on my system one engine looks after the starter batteries and the other the house batteries. I have currently a shunt that connects starter and house batteries should the starter batteries fail that enables starting but that wont be possible with lithium. I would be able to charge the starter battery though with the shunt or DC-DC charging. The starter battery is also connected to an independent solar panel and as it's only function is to start the battery is always optimal, fully charged and never required shunting the two banks to start the engines in 8 years of ownership so I dont rate the risk very high.

 

[Portofino]

So what would you do when not if you hear dead mans click of the solenoid not quite fully engaging ?

The most reassuring switch on the dash is the x over / parallel switch imho .

Water , damp , somethings moved - shorted , loose connection , corrosion , faulty insulation and always @ anchor in a Sod’s law way we all are familiar with owning boats and you loose the starter bank @ anchor .

Add more theatre with imminent adverse tides , bad weather on the way , darkness , a sick crew member etc etc and you are dead ( from a engine pov ) in the water .

2nd what if one alternator the starter responsible one failed on your run out ? Also the solar fails , it’s dull or night .

Anyhow what problem are you trying to solve ? By adding substituting the existing set up with theses alternatives?
You have not said why , just given us a “ I do not want list “

Where are going with his proposed set up ?

 

[BruceK]

So what would you do when not if you hear dead mans click of the solenoid not quite fully engaging ?

The most reassuring switch on the dash is the x over / parallel switch imho .

Water , damp , somethings moved - shorted , loose connection , corrosion , faulty insulation and always @ anchor in a Sod’s law way we all are familiar with owning boats and you loose the starter bank @ anchor .

Add more theatre with imminent adverse tides , bad weather on the way , darkness , a sick crew member etc etc and you are dead ( from a engine pov ) in the water .

2nd what if one alternator the starter responsible one failed on your run out ? Also the solar fails , it’s dull or night .

Anyhow what problem are you trying to solve ? By adding substituting the existing set up with theses alternatives?
You have not said why , just given us a “ I do not want list “

Where are going with his proposed set up ?

Maybe a problem with Itama, never ever has it been on a Formula. You need a better boat for sure.



in parallel the Sterlings will deliver 300A constant. It would take minutes to revive a starter battery that was struggling if a shunt boost was insufficient. As I said. My starter batteries have absolutely no other purpose except to start the engines. The engines start on a dime and the batteries always at peak condition. In 8 years with a 3 year battery exchange I have never had a problem. But you would have me carry 4x 120 lead acid just so I can charge 2 lithium batteries. What is the blimmin point of going lithium then ?

WHy do I want to go lithium? Lithium can punch out a much higher constant amp rate and much better suited to inverter than leisure batteries are. An inverter kills leisure batteries stone dead pretty quickly. I am also going down this route because I believe it will be better for my usage than running a genny and my calcs show I only would require 220Amp hour to last me a long weekend. I can add more in parallel if my requirements grow indefinitely.

 

[Portofino]

Not a problem at all , thanks for your miss placed concern .
We also have a geny so have via a charger batt top ups on the press of button anytime anywhere .+ free 220v .

You ought to one day experience a fully power wise self sufficient boat .

Incidentally the geny has a rare I suspect feature it’s got it’s own x over switch to supply power to the starter motors .
I have used it once after reading about it in the Italian hand book ( via google translate) ….just out of curiosity.It worked .

There is also an inverter to convert 24 v to 220 v on some sockets and I think the water heater , but alas i have not played with that toy in the interests of battery preservation .
How can I ” better “ this set up of boat electrics ?
A lot of boats share theses features they are not brand specific.They are generic did you know that ?
I ask because you mentioned a brand I coincidentally happen to currently run .


Anyhow old chap any chance of answering the Q s I raised so we can help you .

Just as a side shoot to pitch your view on risk s afloat , if a future dead mans click seems low down on your boat safety priorities do you mind me asking if you carry a life raft and a EPIRB ?

BTW I have never sunk a boat or indeed felt the need to request helicopters to assist in a rescue .Nor have many others who carry this kit .Despite 45 years sailing to your 8 years of a none engine start but nether the less nice to have some sort of back up should the need arise .
I think a back up ( or two ) is sensible as sensible as carrying a life raft + indicator beacon .

You never know .

 

[BruceK]

Do you delight in being a windbag or is it a conceit? You never seem capable of adding something positive but instead preach doom and gloom and are destructive to the threads. Your patronising conceit knows no bounds and now you have prompted me to finally place you as my first on ignore. I doubt I'm the first. Grab a ball gag on your way out

 

[Richard10002]

So my standard KAD Valeo alternator is very likely to overheat or dump while travelling at low speeds trying to charge lithium batteries.


a Sterling 2500W Pro Combi S Pure Sine wave inverter which will push the total to 3k GBP

I recently replaced my Sterling Pro Combi S 2500W inverter charger mostly because it used 4A quiescent current. I had to turn it on and off when I wanted to use it… if I forgot to turn it off, it used almost 100Ah a day!!

The Victron I’ve replaced it with only uses 0.8A quiescent, so I can leave it on deliberately, and not worry about its use of power, (it’s a 2000, with a 1600W continuous capability,, so not as powerful as the Sterling).

Why the reluctance to retain an LA starter battery to connect the DC to DC charger to. I fitted a new bank of lithium, retained the old LA bank as a back up, and the La starter remains. Victron Orion 30A, jobs a good ‘in

ETA: Aha!

 

[BruceK]

it used 4A quiescent current

!! Thats way too much. Thanks for the heads up . The specs say 1.2Amp and 0.4Amp in powersave mode (with latest transformer) or am I misreading it

Pro Combi S Pure Sine Wave Inverter

Online current consumption at 12V/24V:	12V 1.2A, 24V on 1500 - 2500 sine, 4.5A for 3500 unit	12V 1.2A, 24V on 1500 - 2500 sine, 4.5A for 3500 unit
Power Saver Mode Current Consumption:	12V 0.4, 24V 0.2	12V 0.4, 24V 0.2

Why the reluctance to retain an LA starter battery to connect the DC to DC charger to

The starter bank is a seperate system. A DC-DC charge would have to be off the house bank system and then my reluctance is space and weight tbh. The current house battery bank weighs enough to cause the boat to list at rest by 2-3 cm unless the black water tank is full. I'd like to be shot of them rather than adding to them and at 4 yrs they must be end of life. (3 in the house bank and they must be about 30kg each.) I would need another to make 4 to balance the system leaving nowhere for the Lithium batteries. In addition the charge rate of the lead batteries is much slower and especially with the stock alternator which means the Lithium wont recharge as quickly. As it stands I cannot fully recharge the current lead acid house batteries by alternator alone after a weekend out, it needs topping off over the week by solar. They seem to only accept about 20Amps of charge max from the alternator or my current 4 stage battery charger which is rated at 40A. I also dont think my leisure batteries can hold 30A output continuous let alone the 80A the lithium can take at half C so it doent make much sense to go DC-DC even if there was space to add another PB and 2 lithium batteries.

Weight in the boat is also kind of critical. If I can save 90kg in lead for 23 kilo in lithium and dump half my tools onboard which is excessive including what must amount to 30 kg in fluids and another 30 in arbitrary tackle I wont feel so bad about increasing my water capacity from 200 to 400 litre which will be a major boon to the boat as well for longer term anchoring. 200 sees a family of 4, 5days at a push which means for every 10 day break I lose two in a marina just to bunker up unless the tides are favourable.

But lets stick to the topic. Is there a local equivalent to Balmar high output alternators with external charging regulators? Or is there a alternator - to - battery lithium capable charger that is intelligent enough to current limit a stock alternator (alternator temp sensors or other)

 

[prinex]

https://www.philippi-online.de/file..._manual/10000003207_03_AppendixAlphaProEN.pdf

Philippi has some alternators thing for boats maybe this _

 

[BruceK]

https://www.philippi-online.de/file..._manual/10000003207_03_AppendixAlphaProEN.pdf

Philippi has some alternators thing for boats maybe this _

Now that's very promising and the UK distributor supports a stockist 5 min from me. I will definitely be calling. Many thanks for the heads up. ? ?

 

[Hurricane]

Do you delight in being a windbag or is it a conceit? You never seem capable of adding something positive but instead preach doom and gloom and are destructive to the threads. Your patronising conceit knows no bounds and now you have prompted me to finally place you as my first on ignore. I doubt I'm the first. Grab a ball gag on your way out

Very well put.
Now where's that ignore button - maybe I should use it as well!!

 

[Hurricane]

Very well put.
Now where's that ignore button - maybe I should use it as well!!

Hey - that worked well - he's gone!!
I should have done that long ago.

 

[Richard10002]

!! Thats way too much. Thanks for the heads up . The specs say 1.2Amp and 0.4Amp in powersave mode (with latest transformer) or am I misreading it

Pro Combi S Pure Sine Wave Inverter

Online current consumption at 12V/24V:	12V 1.2A, 24V on 1500 - 2500 sine, 4.5A for 3500 unit	12V 1.2A, 24V on 1500 - 2500 sine, 4.5A for 3500 unit
Power Saver Mode Current Consumption:	12V 0.4, 24V 0.2	12V 0.4, 24V 0.2

When I bought mine it was marketed with a lower quiescent current, (cant remember what it was in 2011), but, in real life, it measured at 4A. As a consequence, I would take any of Sterlings marketing material with a pinch of salt.

I never used standby as they are rarely capable of waking up if you want to power something that doesn't demand much power.

 

[BruceK]

Thanks Richard. Can you tell me the current model Victron you have? Is it the Phoenix inverter only or Multi inverter/charger. In the literature I was unable to confirmation of battery types supported. Is this programmable on yours (if charger as well) to suit your Lithium batteries or do you leave it to the battery management system to sort out?

EDIT Scratch that you're DC-DC. But if you know the answer please speak out

 

[Richard10002]

Thanks Richard. Can you tell me the current model Victron you have? Is it the Phoenix inverter only or Multi inverter/charger. In the literature I was unable to confirmation of battery types supported. Is this programmable on yours (if charger as well) to suit your Lithium batteries or do you leave it to the battery management system to sort out?

EDIT Scratch that you're DC-DC. But if you know the answer please speak out

I have a Phoenix Smart Inverter 2000VA.

My charger is a Sterling Pro Charge Ultra 60A which has a custom setting so "infinitely" variable. As I mostly charge using a generator, I set it to max out at 14.6V, with a float of 14.6V, if I want to charge to 100%, (resetting the monitor Victron BM712s). If I want to leave it and forget it, (albeit the genny would run out of petrol after about 3 or 4 hours, I set it to 13.8V max and float. My circumstances mean that I am monitoring all the time when charging with the genny, and it is fairly failsafe as the fuel will run out. If I was connected to shore power, and it was on 24/7, I would set a float of 13.3V or less.

I don't do much cruising these days, so the DC-DC is more of a back up if the other methods fail, (the Sterling failed and I was without it working for a few weeks in November last year... no solar either).

Solar is set to max at 13.8V, with a float of 13.3V. I think my Tracer does a max of 3 hours a day at the max voltage, so not ideal, but safe.

I've retained my LA bank as a back up as well, merely because it was fairly simple to do. It remains at 100% SOC as I hardly use it. Every now and then, I divert the charging to the LA bank to take care of any self discharge, or actual use. If the Lithium bank is disconnected due to low voltage or similar, I can flick a switch and the LA bank springs into action. If I hadn't retained the LA house bank, I would have connected the DC-DC to the starter, which is LA.

(As a matter of interest, when my Sterling charger failed, it turned out to be a blown fuse. Charles Sterling actually told me, (repeatedly), to increase the value of the fuse until it worked, rather than find the actual cause. In the end, a good clean of the fuse holder solved the issue.)

 

[vas]

Bruce, I assume you have read the thread over on PBO started by Poey50 (if I got that right)

not at all sure at the capabilities of the drop ins as far as their BMS is concerned. Considering what Richard found above makes me v.suspicious of what Sterling generally state.
Currently planning for a hybrid system keeping the Trojans (which are getting closer to EOL) as a buffer between difficult to handle charges and LifePO4 (custom built with probably a diy BMS).
I know I'm not helping much and I do agree getting an alternator that can dump lots of amps in no time is going to be good for yourpattern of use. I'm just worried of how the drop ins will cope with 60-70A. Is the BMS up to the job? Check the specs carefully, various things seem to be hidden in the small print.

Personally I'd go Victron and custom built LifePO4 with a BMS that would suit my useage patterns and means of charging.
Final point are you sure you can fit the Balmer in your tiny e/r? is there space on whichever engine it needs to fit?? is it easy to fit the right belt pulley for it? Doubt it will work on a normal v belt, right?

V.

 

[Megs20Burt!]

Bruce, I assume you have read the thread over on PBO started by Poey50 (if I got that right)

not at all sure at the capabilities of the drop ins as far as their BMS is concerned. Considering what Richard found above makes me v.suspicious of what Sterling generally state.
Currently planning for a hybrid system keeping the Trojans (which are getting closer to EOL) as a buffer between difficult to handle charges and LifePO4 (custom built with probably a diy BMS).
I know I'm not helping much and I do agree getting an alternator that can dump lots of amps in no time is going to be good for yourpattern of use. I'm just worried of how the drop ins will cope with 60-70A. Is the BMS up to the job? Check the specs carefully, various things seem to be hidden in the small print.

Personally I'd go Victron and custom built LifePO4 with a BMS that would suit my useage patterns and means of charging.
Final point are you sure you can fit the Balmer in your tiny e/r? is there space on whichever engine it needs to fit?? is it easy to fit the right belt pulley for it? Doubt it will work on a normal v belt, right?

V.

My understanding is that the BMS supplied with the ‘drop-in’ solution isn’t up to the job. So, your view seems correct with all that I researched. The move to LifePo4 for boaters appears to provide long-term solutions, but the journey to get there is full of pitfalls if not carefully researched and thought through.

 

[BruceK]

Hi Vas, thanks for your comments. I am beginning to get sceptical about Sterling from the comments received but I am very nervous of building my own battery and cell balancing etc etc. What I liked about the sterling is it's own inbuilt BMS sorts that all out. To be honest I am terrified of fire. I have experienced a fire at sea during my marine exploration days on RV Geomaster and BENCO. And have sat at sea in a liferaft chunking my guts too. Those were steel ships and I'd hate to be in a plastic one and experience the same.

Considering what LifePO4 is capable of the Sterlings seemed to be quite tamed down and well below the thresholds that would strain the battery but still offering the grunt I need to power an inverter briefly....... and stacked next to the Chinese cells of no providence available on Ebay still sounds a safer bet, if not the best bet.
I am not stuck on Sterling, and would happily take another recommended brand the forum puts forth. The Sterlings by the way were a recommendation from an offshoot thread here in this forum of the PBO thread.

Is there a better recommended LifePO4 battery maker than Sterling anybody can advise / opine on? (that's not going to break a 3k budget or a genny starts making sense again)

As for the Balmar, yes the 6 series would fit. Remember the single V belt is good for 70 Amp before it shreds and that is what the 6 series offers. Plus I could tame it down to 50-60 A through the external regulator. These high out put alternators differ from the stock which were designed to replenish starter batteries at low current and thay are more suitable to charging large banks at low revs delivering optimum current while with current modulation wont overheat with the lower fan speeds. (temp sensor). There is space to put up to 200 A (XT and AT series) as they have adapters that will fit my engine. It's quite neat actually. Choose your engine from the drop down lists and they build the solution for you. However I dont want more, it balanced against the Sterling charge current and wouldnt overload one engine significantly against the other with a stock alternator.

 

[vas]

OK, I understand that Bruce, how about getting some independent opinion on the BMS within these Stirling drop ins?
I've heard way too many cases of BMSes been too lightweight built for accepting serious loads... I mean if your 60A cannot get into the battery the whole grand on the Balmer goes to the skip doesn't it? And if you're planning el. cooking on board then you'd need 100+A discharge which I've no idea if they support. Again what all these guys claim vs what you get in real life is not always close...

I recon a bit more studying with guys taking things apart and testing them would be nice. Careful as some of these guys have an axe to grind so not really giving ballanced and neutral reviews!