blockett
New Member
Can anyone compare sterling, adverc, X-alt etc?
Alternator conrollers
- Thread starter blockett
- Start date
ccscott49
Well-Known Member
I have adverc on one engine, sterling on the other, different battery banks, I can see no difference in them, both do the job they were designed for.
Becky
Well-Known Member
It's not Becky, it's HWMBO.
Several years ago at the London boat show I was talking to a man on a battery stand, I honestly can not remember which company, and I said "There are no witnesses, no recorders and I sharn't reveal your company, but I'm thinking of buying a battery controller. It will be either a Sterling or an Adverc. Whith your knowledge and experience and no axe to grind which do you recomend?
His reply, "No contest, it's the Adverc."
That was all the guidance that I needed. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Several years ago at the London boat show I was talking to a man on a battery stand, I honestly can not remember which company, and I said "There are no witnesses, no recorders and I sharn't reveal your company, but I'm thinking of buying a battery controller. It will be either a Sterling or an Adverc. Whith your knowledge and experience and no axe to grind which do you recomend?
His reply, "No contest, it's the Adverc."
That was all the guidance that I needed. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
prescott56
Well-Known Member
have a look at teh stirling battery to battery chargers, fitted one 6 weeks ago and absolutely top bit o fkit. dead easy to fit.
regards
regards
geronimo
Active Member
But is it not cheaper to make the alternator sense the battery bank and no need for these expensive devices
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But is it not cheaper to make the alternator sense the battery bank and no need for these expensive devices
[/ QUOTE ]If you were only trying to overcome the voltage loss through charge splitting diodes that would be true. However you would not gain the benefit of the alternator charging at the highest rate that the battery will accept, and the reduced charging times that result. A standard alternator charge regulator will never get anywhere near 100% charge into a battery, and will only get to 80 or 90% after prolonged engine running.
But is it not cheaper to make the alternator sense the battery bank and no need for these expensive devices
[/ QUOTE ]If you were only trying to overcome the voltage loss through charge splitting diodes that would be true. However you would not gain the benefit of the alternator charging at the highest rate that the battery will accept, and the reduced charging times that result. A standard alternator charge regulator will never get anywhere near 100% charge into a battery, and will only get to 80 or 90% after prolonged engine running.
ccscott49
Well-Known Member
Alternator sensing, is no good atall for charging batteries that have been discharged in a domestic bank, they were never designed to do this, they were designed, to charge a battery which had just started the engine, which only needs a boost to bring it back to full charge, or 85% anyway. Alternator charge controllers of whatever make are the dogs bits! Simple as that.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Agreed. Plus, as is never mentioned, smart alternator controllers fall back to around 13.6/13.8V when charged instead of 14.3/14.5V, which many standard alternator regulators are fixed at. In my boat, after 24hrs or more at sea with the engine running, when the outside temperatures are 30C or more, the engine room is at 40C or so. The battery compartment is enclosed and vented but there is no significant air flow so the batteries can get warm. With a charge voltage of 14.5V (which I have at present) the batteries can draw, when fully charged, over 10A (3 x 180 Ah batteries in parallel). This is effectively leakage current and is a loss resulting in 10 x 14.5 = 145W. This heat raises the temperature and it is potentially a thermal runaway. I have measured the temperature of my batteries at nearly 50C which is not good.
For this reason I will be fitting a smart controller (I have an old Sterling in a locker, waiting to use) and being an analogue unit I will be able to set the final float voltage by means of an on-board pot. It is worth pointing out to folks that they would be better off to buy a unit that is adjustable - be it digital or analogue. Sterling inhibit all adjustments on the digital charge/inverter combi that they badge presumably because 'they know best'. The combi manufacturer made the adjustments available because he knows that all batteries are not the same. The highly-respected Trojans and other US batteries have very different characteristics to the typical UK leisure battery, and motor batteries are quite different, too. These days you can usually download product manuals before buying so you can check - unless it's a Sterling. Sterling don't tell you that they have inhibited the user programming feature provided by the manufacturer yet leave the instructions about how to do so in the manual! Highly confusing and they were not prepared to discuss it when we asked about it. The only replies to emails that we received from Charles Sterling were to download the manual from their website. Zero support, just "RTFM". I don't know whether they have inhibited the programmability on their smart alternator controllers but since they don't seem to believe in this being a user-programmable function there must be a high probability. You have been warned, folks.
My biggest headache is fitting the extra wire to the alternator. I have done it once on a Lucas and the present one is a Bosch. If you can do a nice job on modifying the alternator the rest of it is easy if you are any good with auto electrics.
For this reason I will be fitting a smart controller (I have an old Sterling in a locker, waiting to use) and being an analogue unit I will be able to set the final float voltage by means of an on-board pot. It is worth pointing out to folks that they would be better off to buy a unit that is adjustable - be it digital or analogue. Sterling inhibit all adjustments on the digital charge/inverter combi that they badge presumably because 'they know best'. The combi manufacturer made the adjustments available because he knows that all batteries are not the same. The highly-respected Trojans and other US batteries have very different characteristics to the typical UK leisure battery, and motor batteries are quite different, too. These days you can usually download product manuals before buying so you can check - unless it's a Sterling. Sterling don't tell you that they have inhibited the user programming feature provided by the manufacturer yet leave the instructions about how to do so in the manual! Highly confusing and they were not prepared to discuss it when we asked about it. The only replies to emails that we received from Charles Sterling were to download the manual from their website. Zero support, just "RTFM". I don't know whether they have inhibited the programmability on their smart alternator controllers but since they don't seem to believe in this being a user-programmable function there must be a high probability. You have been warned, folks.
My biggest headache is fitting the extra wire to the alternator. I have done it once on a Lucas and the present one is a Bosch. If you can do a nice job on modifying the alternator the rest of it is easy if you are any good with auto electrics.
david36
Well-Known Member
I have had all three at different times on the same boat. Sterling do not have anything to deal with twin alternators. Aside from that my experience is that both Sterling and Adverc work fine. You need to configure the Sterling in particular for the right type of battery etc. It is not at all difficult. Adverc seems easier to fit with better instructions for the less able electrician. X-Alt sometimes need a lot of extra bits and pieces to make them work properly. Also they seem to perform in a way which is sometimes not even understood by their own technical department. The company is quite willing to provide guidance but it took me and an expert marine electrician months and several hundred pounds of labour and parts costs to get one installation working ok. For a simple twin battery, one alternator set up I would go for Sterling - the basic digital one not the 12/24v "pro" one.
Goldie
Well-Known Member
For advice and after sales service, Adverc wins, hands down.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Another vote for Adverc.
billmacfarlane
Well-Known Member
I've got a Sterling and my last boat had a TWC, from which the Adverc is derived. Both seem to work though Sterling's after sales service isn't good. For that reason if I had a choice I'd go for an Adverc.
andy_wilson
Well-Known Member
Merlin AMS
This was on my list, due to the ramp up feature. With a low powered engine and large alternator I - like many - find that with the engine cold and the batteries flat, the engine will not drive both the alternator and the propellor.
Slight issue is that the ramp up feature actually means that NO charging takes place for 10 minutes, which is a major balls ache if you are running the engine for battery charging only.
I would be interested in anyone elses opinion on this regarding the Sterling and Adverc.
This was on my list, due to the ramp up feature. With a low powered engine and large alternator I - like many - find that with the engine cold and the batteries flat, the engine will not drive both the alternator and the propellor.
Slight issue is that the ramp up feature actually means that NO charging takes place for 10 minutes, which is a major balls ache if you are running the engine for battery charging only.
I would be interested in anyone elses opinion on this regarding the Sterling and Adverc.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Ramp-up feature...
I think you've misunderstood the ramp-up feature. As far as I'm aware, the ramp-up allows a slow build-up of the charge boosting - however, as the Merlin AMS works in conjunction with the existing alternator regulator, you would still have charging as soon as the engine starts (just as if you didn't have an add-on alternator controller). If your batteries are very low, this charge current could affect power available for driving the boat.
The Adverc works similarly, in that it doesn't start boosting the charge current until the batteries have reached about 13.5v under ordinary charging conditions.
The Sterling, I believe, just boosts straight away.
I think you've misunderstood the ramp-up feature. As far as I'm aware, the ramp-up allows a slow build-up of the charge boosting - however, as the Merlin AMS works in conjunction with the existing alternator regulator, you would still have charging as soon as the engine starts (just as if you didn't have an add-on alternator controller). If your batteries are very low, this charge current could affect power available for driving the boat.
The Adverc works similarly, in that it doesn't start boosting the charge current until the batteries have reached about 13.5v under ordinary charging conditions.
The Sterling, I believe, just boosts straight away.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Merlin AMS
The ramp-up feature is an interesting idea. Many liveaboards with generators charge their batteries for a while with the genny/mains charger before starting the engine to avoid belt wear. I do this and leave the genny running while bringing up the anchor to reduce the belt load. Belts take a heck of a hammering at high power and in any case belt drive is not the most efficient way to convert diesel fuel into Ah. Having said that, running another engine isn't that efficient, either, but it does avoid the excess load.
However, how does ramping help? If the load were to taper up very slowly (which is what they imply) how does this help at all? I would imagine that a ramp up over, say, one second might greatly reduce the impulse load on the belt and maybe that is better for the belt and pulley? It's not my specialist field so I can only speculate on that.
The truth is that higher alternator output = higher belt wear.
The ramp-up feature is an interesting idea. Many liveaboards with generators charge their batteries for a while with the genny/mains charger before starting the engine to avoid belt wear. I do this and leave the genny running while bringing up the anchor to reduce the belt load. Belts take a heck of a hammering at high power and in any case belt drive is not the most efficient way to convert diesel fuel into Ah. Having said that, running another engine isn't that efficient, either, but it does avoid the excess load.
However, how does ramping help? If the load were to taper up very slowly (which is what they imply) how does this help at all? I would imagine that a ramp up over, say, one second might greatly reduce the impulse load on the belt and maybe that is better for the belt and pulley? It's not my specialist field so I can only speculate on that.
The truth is that higher alternator output = higher belt wear.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Ramp-up feature...
It shouldn't be quite like that. With the controller in place it takes full control of the charging, it doesn't just 'add' boost, which is what I think you mean? At the end of the charging period the controller will reduce the float voltage to a level set by the controller, not the old regulator. Indeed, I am fitting one onto my Yanmar because the standard regulator is set at a constant 14.5V which is far too high to have running 24/24 in all temperatures, so once the charging cycle is complete it will fall back to a float level of whatever I set (mine is an old analogue Sterling with a pot on the PCB). At least, that's what I EXPECT it to do...I haven't installed it yet! But I am sure that I am right about this.
It shouldn't be quite like that. With the controller in place it takes full control of the charging, it doesn't just 'add' boost, which is what I think you mean? At the end of the charging period the controller will reduce the float voltage to a level set by the controller, not the old regulator. Indeed, I am fitting one onto my Yanmar because the standard regulator is set at a constant 14.5V which is far too high to have running 24/24 in all temperatures, so once the charging cycle is complete it will fall back to a float level of whatever I set (mine is an old analogue Sterling with a pot on the PCB). At least, that's what I EXPECT it to do...I haven't installed it yet! But I am sure that I am right about this.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Don\'t think so...
Most "smart" alternator regulators work in tandem with the alternator's own regulator. This is a fail-safe feature so that charging is still retained even if the extra alternator regulator stops working. What this means is that the "smart" regulator can only increase the alternator's output voltage (and hence boost the charge current), it can't reduce the alternator's output voltage.
It's possible to disconnect the internal regulator and use only an external regulator, of course, but most people don't do that.
Most "smart" alternator regulators work in tandem with the alternator's own regulator. This is a fail-safe feature so that charging is still retained even if the extra alternator regulator stops working. What this means is that the "smart" regulator can only increase the alternator's output voltage (and hence boost the charge current), it can't reduce the alternator's output voltage.
It's possible to disconnect the internal regulator and use only an external regulator, of course, but most people don't do that.
cliff
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Sterling don't tell you that they have inhibited the user programming feature provided by the manufacturer yet leave the instructions about how to do so in the manual! Highly confusing and they were not prepared to discuss it when we asked about it. The only replies to emails that we received from Charles Sterling were to download the manual from their website. Zero support, just "RTFM". I don't know whether they have inhibited the programmability on their smart alternator controllers but since they don't seem to believe in this being a user-programmable function there must be a high probability. You have been warned, folks
[/ QUOTE ]There could be a very good reason for that - picture the scenario where some twit who thinks he (or his mate) is an expert electrical or electronic engineer and knows what he is doing and alters the presets and wrecks a battery or two then blames Sterling (having reset the charger or not). By fixing the charge voltages and not permitting joe public to change them they are protecting both themselves and the customer. In Sterling's position I would do the same. Why would you want to alter the presets anyway - we are talking about liesure boat batteries here, not some high tech critical usage so keeping things in context, do a few extra Ah really matter? Surely not on a MoBo that is running its engine(s) to get anywhere and most raggies manage without having to squeeze every possible Ah of charge they can out of their alternator. FWIW I am a raggie and have a generator onboard which I can use to power the onboard charger when needed (which is not often). Folk should be out sailing and enjoying their pastime, rather than talking about a couple of Ah here or there.
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>
Sterling don't tell you that they have inhibited the user programming feature provided by the manufacturer yet leave the instructions about how to do so in the manual! Highly confusing and they were not prepared to discuss it when we asked about it. The only replies to emails that we received from Charles Sterling were to download the manual from their website. Zero support, just "RTFM". I don't know whether they have inhibited the programmability on their smart alternator controllers but since they don't seem to believe in this being a user-programmable function there must be a high probability. You have been warned, folks
[/ QUOTE ]There could be a very good reason for that - picture the scenario where some twit who thinks he (or his mate) is an expert electrical or electronic engineer and knows what he is doing and alters the presets and wrecks a battery or two then blames Sterling (having reset the charger or not). By fixing the charge voltages and not permitting joe public to change them they are protecting both themselves and the customer. In Sterling's position I would do the same. Why would you want to alter the presets anyway - we are talking about liesure boat batteries here, not some high tech critical usage so keeping things in context, do a few extra Ah really matter? Surely not on a MoBo that is running its engine(s) to get anywhere and most raggies manage without having to squeeze every possible Ah of charge they can out of their alternator. FWIW I am a raggie and have a generator onboard which I can use to power the onboard charger when needed (which is not often). Folk should be out sailing and enjoying their pastime, rather than talking about a couple of Ah here or there.
--------------------
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>
halcyon
Well-Known Member
Re: Don\'t think so...
You can not boost current, by increasing voltage you inrease the length of time it can charge for. Alternator output used to be listed as Watts at a set voltage, into a resistive load. The voltage you see is the result of the battery resistance, thus as charge level increases so does resistance, so does the voltage, old days of EMF. Once the voltage reaches the alternator reg voltage, current falls to a very low level, by increasing the reg voltage you keep the charge current for a longer time. But once you reach the new reg voltage, current will agin fall, but you have a more severe gassing situation.
Brian
You can not boost current, by increasing voltage you inrease the length of time it can charge for. Alternator output used to be listed as Watts at a set voltage, into a resistive load. The voltage you see is the result of the battery resistance, thus as charge level increases so does resistance, so does the voltage, old days of EMF. Once the voltage reaches the alternator reg voltage, current falls to a very low level, by increasing the reg voltage you keep the charge current for a longer time. But once you reach the new reg voltage, current will agin fall, but you have a more severe gassing situation.
Brian
Robin
Well-Known Member
Re: Merlin AMS
I'm a big Adverc fan so add my vote to that, we have 2 Advercs on two alternators on a Yanmar 44. Both alternators are capable of 90A and both run on single belts, one feeds a 270AH domerstic bank and the other a 190Ah service plus a 120Ah engine start/windlass through a split diode. We have never noticed any problem in starting and I always start our engine with the throttle set at tickover (BTW I used to do that way back with a Bukh 10 too). We have never had any problems with excess belt wear! In fact our club engineer chuckles because I always have him replace both belts every winter service 'just to be sure' and keep the old ones as spares, we have a locker full.
Although we have 2 x 90A alternators we never see more than about 50A in normal use. IMO for either alternator to be called on to feed 90A would suggest I had let the batteries get below 50% about 12.3/12.4v before charging which I never do, in fact it would need to be way below that. We do have solar panels and a big windy so even long periods at anchor keep our batteries above 50% and often pretty full. However you can see the Advercs stick the voltage up when they want to before dropping it back to a float voltage when done and you can see about a 5 minute delay before high power charging starts.
I'm a big Adverc fan so add my vote to that, we have 2 Advercs on two alternators on a Yanmar 44. Both alternators are capable of 90A and both run on single belts, one feeds a 270AH domerstic bank and the other a 190Ah service plus a 120Ah engine start/windlass through a split diode. We have never noticed any problem in starting and I always start our engine with the throttle set at tickover (BTW I used to do that way back with a Bukh 10 too). We have never had any problems with excess belt wear! In fact our club engineer chuckles because I always have him replace both belts every winter service 'just to be sure' and keep the old ones as spares, we have a locker full.
Although we have 2 x 90A alternators we never see more than about 50A in normal use. IMO for either alternator to be called on to feed 90A would suggest I had let the batteries get below 50% about 12.3/12.4v before charging which I never do, in fact it would need to be way below that. We do have solar panels and a big windy so even long periods at anchor keep our batteries above 50% and often pretty full. However you can see the Advercs stick the voltage up when they want to before dropping it back to a float voltage when done and you can see about a 5 minute delay before high power charging starts.