Alpha 1 Gen 2 water ingress

oGaryo

oGaryo

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I've noticed water ingress in the lube reservoir when carrying out prechecks for the trip back to Southampton from Cowes so will be down to the boat this weekend to investigate the cause... it wasn't there during the seatrial in Nov 2010.

A possible cause is improper rebuild following work carried out by the previous owners service engineers in Sept 2010 where they replaced the Gimbal Bearing, along with the UJ, Gear Shift and exhaust bellows.. they also fitted a new water pickup pipe.. all Merc parts... could be something simple like a filler/drain plug gasket not fitted or a seal dislodged/nicked on refit.

intention this weekend is to check for the obvious clues such as fishing line behind the prop, barnacle damage, excessive shards of metal on the lower drain plug or casing damage from the cold weather, even though the leg has been stored down and antifreeze run through the drive before storing the boat.

However, the main reason for posting this is to ask if there's an outlet in the UK that sells gearcase pressure testers along the lines of this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=280611043326 or whether someone knows how to make up a DIY job as I want to pressure & vacuum test the drive this weekend to proove or discount a seal issue, so would prefer not to wait for one to arrive from the states
Click to expand...

I'm not getting any growling or noise increase on full steering lock whilst underway so don't suspect the new Gimbal Bearing has been fitted incorrectly but I guess that's not to say the bellows haven't been... If I can't find anything obvious with the above checks, I'll drop the drive and split the lower unit too.

If I find anything serious, I'll post here for some of that excellent advice that the forum's renowned for:)...

I'll not be taking the boat out again until sorted.

As always, any advice welcome on approach or other checks I can make to get this one sorted quickly.

cheers Gary
 
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STEVEDUNSTABLE said:
HI GARY... volvopaul of this parish might be worth a PM ...hes in southampton area....hope you sortit asap.
Click to expand...

thanks Steve.. to be honest mate, I've always been the type for sorting things myself unless I hit a brick wall, at which point I call in the professionals. thanks again, appreciated
 
I have Alfa 2 gen 2's on Rafiki. Had them serviced last year, and it seemed quite a task, especially fitting and glueing the bellows. May be an area of concern to you? Other than the service, they are both very good and easy to use.
 
thanks guys... TK, is that the tiny little o ring.. can't recall exactly where it fits until I split the upper from the lower but it was somnewhere near the impeller housing from what I recall when I changed the impeller on my previous boat.. it did occur to me at the time how easy it'd be to lose the thing.... won't name names as I don't know root cause yet but the drive was overhauled by a marine engineer company shortly before I bought the boat and hasn't been touched since so I'd be suprised (but not shocked) if they've messed it up.

the Mityvac tool arrived today, good bit of kit and shoul help locate the seal leak if there is one.

picking up a couple of drain plug gaskets on Friday along with a few qaurts of high performance lube to flush the leg out.. will hopefully know by Sunday whether I've got a big issue or not
 
oGaryo said:
thanks guys... TK, is that the tiny little o ring.. can't recall exactly where it fits until I split the upper from the lower but it was somnewhere near the impeller housing from what I recall when I changed the impeller on my previous boat.. it did occur to me at the time how easy it'd be to lose the thing.... won't name names as I don't know root cause yet but the drive was overhauled by a marine engineer company shortly before I bought the boat and hasn't been touched since so I'd be suprised (but not shocked) if they've messed it up.

the Mityvac tool arrived today, good bit of kit and shoul help locate the seal leak if there is one.

picking up a couple of drain plug gaskets on Friday along with a few qaurts of high performance lube to flush the leg out.. will hopefully know by Sunday whether I've got a big issue or not
Click to expand...

Yes it seals the oil gallery between the top and bottom gearcases.
 
tinkicker0 said:
it seals the oil gallery between the top and bottom gearcases
Click to expand...
I suppose it's #21 in the drawing below?
Gary, further details and part numbers here, if that helps.
5069.png
 
tinkicker0 said:
Number 7
Click to expand...

that's the little blighter.. went AWOL when I had the lower gear housing off to do the impeller on the Fletcher last year.

plan of attack for the weekend is..

Friday Night
1. pray to the god of luck and drain a little lube from sterndrive with leg partially up.. check for significant amounts of water in oil.
2. drain remaining oil / water:(
3. pray some more - check drain / fill gaskets & check lower plug for metal shavings
4. slaughter something sacrificial then remove the prop and check for line.
5. plug the monitor reservoir pipe
6. carry out pressure test to the whoe drive and leave pressured up to 15psi. fast for next 12 hours.

Saturday
1. check if pressure has dropped overnight.
2. if it has, denounce allegiance to lucky god - split lower casing and check for pressure loss there.
3. if pressure holds in check 2, remove upper drive check seals, bellows etc while cursing sods law.... need to read up how I do a pressure check on this half of the drive to locate the culprit though
4. obtain parts for anything found duff and fit same day, or Sunday or can the new years resolution, find the nearest pub and get wellied returning to the scene of the crime whenever the parts arrive

need to read up on what I need to do to protect the drive if I need to leave it in bits for a while should I end up waiting for parts to arrive.
 
Do the checks you mentioned and if nothing shows up then it could be the seal under the impellor as this area has a has a slightly higher pressure than ambient when running and the pump will push water down into the drive if the seal is worn/damaged.
The plastic housing holding the seal has an O ring around the outer edge so change that too if the fault is there.
Its parts 19,20,and 21 in the drawing.
 
Also check for the presence of part #6. Easy to forget to put that little washer back on when re-fitting the oil-fill screw, although you should be able to see it without dismantling everything.
 
UPDATE after initial tests

right-o... this is what I've found so far:

prop off after finding a single tab in place, all other tabs had sheared off, prop was on very loose:eek: barnacles and general crud has collected in and around and behind the thrust plate.. will clean up tomorrow..

No fishing line that I can see in the area of the prop and the seals look ok but again, need to clean up the area properly before I am sure.

Oil drained from drive.. no water in the first half cup full but the oil looked old / grey in the torchlight.. definitely water in the reservoir though, it's disconnected at present.

Key find 1: no gasket fitted to the upper drain plug, was something there, maybe instant gasket or something else from a tube but definitely no gasket. Have not investigated the lower drain as it was raining and I want to check it in the daylight to see whats been used before cleaning the hole ready for a new gasket.

Key find 2: there was no significant metal shavings on the lower plug, just half a dozen very very small particles phew, looks like no bearing damage.

Key find 3: the drive held 10 PSI of pressure for an hour... looking good


Suspect at present that either the engineers left the old oil in place or didn't flush it very well after the bellow work that was carried out in Sept.. the oil looks and smells way older than that!!! not sure if it's possible to change the bellows and gimbal bearing without draining the oil though?

Also suspect the lack of gasket on the drain plug(s) may be the cause, especially if the lower one is missing too.

Next Steps: Will increase pressure test to 15 PSI in the morning and give it a vacuum test at similar negative pressure after sourcing new drain plug gaskets. If those two tests hold pressure/vacuum.. will give the reservoir a thorough clean and flush the drive with new oil, before refilling and see if I get water in the oil on the next outing.

however, should I also drop the drive an double check the bellows are bone dry even though all were replaced in Sept by a professional organisation? can water get in to the oil via that route too?

cheers Gary
 
oGaryo said:
will give the reservoir a thorough clean and flush the drive with new oil, before refilling
Click to expand...
Gary, you know by now more than I forgot years ago on Alphas, so I'm afraid I can't answer your questions.
But since you must clean the drive and refill it anyway, here's my 2c suggestion on the gear oil.
Before changing it on my Bravo last year, and after reading many negative comments on a US forum on the original dark greenish Merc stuff, and the alternatives recommended, I decided to give the synthetic Mobil 1 75W-90 a try.
Which btw, in spite of being not cheap at all, still isn't as ridiculously expensive as Merc stuff.
Actually, I was a tad skeptic about what I read re. how bad and smelly the original Merc oil can become after just one season, to the point of getting the bottom of the reservoir stuck with mucky residuals, thus loosing the whole point of having a reservoir.
I was skeptic... Till I experienced it for myself, as you can see below! :eek:
Needless to say, the Mobil stuff at the end of the season was as good and clean as new, with ZERO metal shavings.
MercOil.jpg
 
oGaryo said:
right-o... this is what I've found so far:

prop off after finding a single tab in place, all other tabs had sheared off, prop was on very loose:eek: barnacles and general crud has collected in and around and behind the thrust plate.. will clean up tomorrow..

No fishing line that I can see in the area of the prop and the seals look ok but again, need to clean up the area properly before I am sure.

Oil drained from drive.. no water in the first half cup full but the oil looked old / grey in the torchlight.. definitely water in the reservoir though, it's disconnected at present.

Key find 1: no gasket fitted to the upper drain plug, was something there, maybe instant gasket or something else from a tube but definitely no gasket. Have not investigated the lower drain as it was raining and I want to check it in the daylight to see whats been used before cleaning the hole ready for a new gasket.

Key find 2: there was no significant metal shavings on the lower plug, just half a dozen very very small particles phew, looks like no bearing damage.

Key find 3: the drive held 10 PSI of pressure for an hour... looking good


Suspect at present that either the engineers left the old oil in place or didn't flush it very well after the bellow work that was carried out in Sept.. the oil looks and smells way older than that!!! not sure if it's possible to change the bellows and gimbal bearing without draining the oil though?

Also suspect the lack of gasket on the drain plug(s) may be the cause, especially if the lower one is missing too.

Next Steps: Will increase pressure test to 15 PSI in the morning and give it a vacuum test at similar negative pressure after sourcing new drain plug gaskets. If those two tests hold pressure/vacuum.. will give the reservoir a thorough clean and flush the drive with new oil, before refilling and see if I get water in the oil on the next outing.

however, should I also drop the drive an double check the bellows are bone dry even though all were replaced in Sept by a professional organisation? can water get in to the oil via that route too?

cheers Gary
Click to expand...

Drive oil does not need to be drained to change the bellows, you just disconnect the res tube when you pull the drive. The drive gasket seals this tube

The pukka lube (Quicksilver high performance gear lube) should be blue /green in appearance.

Water can get into the oil via the bellows, only after a significant time due to rusting /wear of the top oil seal and land.

It is likely that the missing gasket has allowed water into the top end, you will need to buy a new top cover O ring and lift the top to inspect the upper bevel gear bearing.
This bearing does not enjoy the finest lubrication in the world and might be rusting - two minutes and a 70p O ring to check.

The results of the pressure test look encouraging. :)
 
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Roy, got to be said, I've clearly met a decent bloke in your goodself.. thanks for the kind offer of assitance but I reckon I've got to the bottom of where the issues are and have picked up a few bits to sort it today.

TK, thanks for the advice, top drawer stuff as always:cool:

Current status is as follows.. pack of 4 drain / vent gaskets purchased after finding one on the lower drain but not the top vent.. looks like easy gasket or something was used instead.

On inspecting the oil from the drive in the sunlight, it doesn't look emulsified or milky, just older than it should be so it'd appear the bodge job top vent held ok... TK, I reckon they've done what you said and not changed the oil as they were rectifying a bum job their junior tech had cocked up a month or so previous when they changed the bellows and the like.

However, there was most definitely water in the reservoir.. poured it in with the other drained oil and the contrast was stark.. light brown in colour.

So I reckon water hasn't come in through the top vent plug but water got in to the reservoir and sat there either due to the method they used to change the bellows and gimbal bearing or through condensation, or something of that nature... it didn't sink to the bottom of the drive as it rested in the bottom of the reservoir instead.

pressure tests at 15psi held rock solid for 3 hours today so no probs there... I've not tried the vacuum tests as I needed to go for a drive instead... I may do it tonight but the Mityvac handpump will take a while to extract all the air from the drive and considering the oil looked ok, it's probably a waste of time.

plan of action is to flush everything out in the morning, fill with High Performance lube and fit the new plug gaskets.. will get the reservoir spotless tonight and dry it out fully ready to fit tomorrow.

Also picked up a new engine oil filter today along with a couple 4l cans of quicksilver oil so will take the opportunity to change the engine oil tomorrow before rewinterising the engine.

all in all, I'll go to sea on the next run out feeling more confident that the lump at the back of the boat is likely to be ok, a weekend well spent:cool:
 
MapisM said:
Gary, you know by now more than I forgot years ago on Alphas, so I'm afraid I can't answer your questions.
But since you must clean the drive and refill it anyway, here's my 2c suggestion on the gear oil.
Before changing it on my Bravo last year, and after reading many negative comments on a US forum on the original dark greenish Merc stuff, and the alternatives recommended, I decided to give the synthetic Mobil 1 75W-90 a try.
Which btw, in spite of being not cheap at all, still isn't as ridiculously expensive as Merc stuff.
Actually, I was a tad skeptic about what I read re. how bad and smelly the original Merc oil can become after just one season, to the point of getting the bottom of the reservoir stuck with mucky residuals, thus loosing the whole point of having a reservoir.
I was skeptic... Till I experienced it for myself, as you can see below! :eek:
Needless to say, the Mobil stuff at the end of the season was as good and clean as new, with ZERO metal shavings.
Click to expand...

must have a look at thatMobil oil.. the HP Quicksliver lube was 15 crisp ones a quart even with Force 4's current 10% discount:rolleyes:
 
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