All round Red over Green - PBO Advice

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

In the last issue of PBO 'Ask the experts' section Stuart Curruthers suggested that you could fit an all round red over green at the mast head to improve the boats visibility at night...

All part of the COL REGS and I very good idea...

However, where on earth can you get the lamps (they need to be 1m apart)?

I have even asked a contact at one of the UK's largest marine wholesalers (a customer of mine).

Any Ideas?

Perhaps a future PBO practical project.

 

[noelex]

Lopolight have suitable lights.
(360° red and 2x 180° green) or (360° red and 360° green or even 2x180° red and 2x180° green)


They are expensive and unfortunately I don't know of any other options

 

[lw395]

...
They are expensive and unfortunately I don't know of any other options

A red LED and a green LED and a 1m stick?
A few LEDs probably.
no difficulties of sectors etc.

But will the fishing boats know what it means?

 

[Oldhairy]

Since I haven't read the article I would like to know the reasoning for this recommendation. Surely a LED tricolour is just as visible. Off cause if your boat is 65'+ you must.

 

[noelex]

Since I haven't read the article I would like to know the reasoning for this recommendation. Surely a LED tricolour is just as visible.

The advantage of red over green is that it can be used together with the lower red and green and white navigation lights. With a tricolour the lower navigation light need to be turned off. With red over green you therefore get the visibility advantage of lights on top of the mast and close to the waterline. Until LEDs the power consumption of all these lights would have been a problem, but with LEDs that concern no longer applies.

The potential drawbacks of the red over green option are that it will be confusing for people that do not know the lighting regulations, you no longer have a back up ( while the tricolour cannot be used motoring if the lower navigation lights fail it is the best option) and the lower green light could possibly get obscured by the sails (if the green is mounted on the mast) leading to some confusion even by those that understand the lighting regulations. A final drawback is that on some boats the lower navigation lights hinder night vision so having to turn these on (red over green cannot be used on its own) can degrade the helmsman vision.

Mounting the red a metre above the masthead with the green at the masthead rather than lower down on the mast removes most of the concern about the green becoming obscured by the sails, but it is difficult to fit the red like this without affecting the wind instruments and VHF antenna.

 

[25931]

A red LED and a green LED and a 1m stick?
A few LEDs probably.
no difficulties of sectors etc.

But will the fishing boats know what it means?

Do the fishing boats ( or many others ) know what any lights mean ?
At least this system is likely to make one more visible and that can't be a bad thing.

 

[noelex]

I have not read the article in PBO, but for the reasons given above I am not sure red over green is the ideal answer.

The best solution in my mind would be to a fit very bright tricolour and possibly lower navigation lights. There is nothing illegal about this. Larger ships are required to fit brighter navigation lights by law, but smaller vessels can do this as well.

Before LEDs these were impractical so we traditionally buy navigation lights with a low 1- 2nm range.( up to 3nm for masthead). These ranges are under the test conditions. In practice they will be visible at longer distances in most circumstances but the legislation was written when brighter alternatives were just not practical for small yachts. We seem to be sticking to this very minimal brightness when it is no longer necessary.

Unfortunately manufacturers have not taken advantage of this. Tricolour lights can only be used by small vessels so the official certification will only state 1 or 2nm, but there is nothing to stop a manufacturer producing a tricolour with say a 4-5nm visibility. This would still pass the requirements and be legal to use. In my view it would be safer and would represent the ideal solution.

3-6nm mile lower navigation lights are available for large ships but power consumption is not an issue for them so these are not normally LED. Lopolight make some 3nm red and green (but not tricolour) LED lights, that could be legally fitted to our sized yachts but they are are very expensive.

With LED technology there is no reason why a manufacturer cannot make compact reasonably priced navigation lights that have a much greater range. It would be particularly beneficial for a tricolour.

The manufacturers do not seem to have completely solved the failure rate problems with LEDs. A tricolour produced by basically sandwiching together 2-4 conventional led arrays (duplicating the electronics and LEDs) each with a 2nm visibility would provide better visibility and the failure of one (or more) arrays would still leave the light working with an adequate legal brightness. The additional electronic parts are not expensive and such a light could potentially be produced for an acceptable price if it had competitive advantage.

 

[Heckler]

Do the fishing boats ( or many others ) know what any lights mean ?
At least this system is likely to make one more visible and that can't be a bad thing.

JCB lights across the Bay of Biscay! French and Spanish seem to have their own rules!
S

 

[michael_w]

Large sailing boats carry their red/green mast lights in pairs on either side of the mast, athwartships, to avoid dark sectors.

 

[alan_d]

Large sailing boats carry their red/green mast lights in pairs on either side of the mast, athwartships, to avoid dark sectors.

Yes, that seems to be common big-ship practice with, for example, NUC lights, so that an all-round light is actually two lights, one either side of the mast.

 

[KellysEye]

I have seen red over green but I would always fit a tricolor then other traffic can see a white stern light. The worst lights we saw were over Biscay a ship had a red port light on the bow, a red light on the starboard bow, and a huge red light on the stern. Another one was a motor boat with a red light on the port bow, green on the starboard bow and no white light on the stern.

 

[prv]

A tricolour produced by basically sandwiching together 2-4 conventional led arrays (duplicating the electronics and LEDs) each with a 2nm visibility would provide better visibility and the failure of one (or more) arrays would still leave the light working with an adequate legal brightness. The additional electronic parts are not expensive and such a light could potentially be produced for an acceptable price if it had competitive advantage.

Bebi, whose lights I installed on both our boats, used to do exactly this. Sadly the company was driven out of business by the Fijian government and the lights are no longer made

Pete

 

[discovery2]

Aqua Signal also have suitable lights, including halyard variants.
http://www.aquasignal.com.au/wp-content/uploads/AquaSignal_Series40.pdf
and
http://www.asap-supplies.com/brands/aquasignal

 

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

yes, but I can't see how you would mount red over green with 1m separation at the mast head, without a lot of diy in a very exposed position...

 

[ghostlymoron]

Do the fishing boats ( or many others ) know what any lights mean ?
At least this system is likely to make one more visible and that can't be a bad thing.

I think that you are being unfair to fishermen, most of whom are very knowledgeable about lights - its their livelihood and safety after all. They have a lot of combinations to remember. I would be more concerned about leisure motorboaters.
I have noticed that many sailers don't take down their fishing basket when travelling to and from their fishing grounds.

 

[ghostlymoron]

The obvious way to achieve all round visibility is by fitting two lights for each colour rode and aft of the mast.

 

[lw395]

The obvious way to achieve all round visibility is by fitting two lights for each colour rode and aft of the mast.

A light either side of the mast works Ok on a fractional rig.
But they light up the sails and knacker your night vision.
Lights for sailing need to work with all the sails up, including a kite, IMHO.

 

[Graham_Wright]

A light either side of the mast works Ok on a fractional rig.
But they light up the sails and knacker your night vision.
Lights for sailing need to work with all the sails up, including a kite, IMHO.

So they have to be on a stick above the mast. Even a genny will cover the lower light.

With the requirement for sectors removed, an all round single, encapsulated group of leds should do the trick.

The lower can be a converted Nasa all round white. (Mine sits on top of the Nasa tri).

 

[capnsensible]

I have seen red over green but I would always fit a tricolor then other traffic can see a white stern light. The worst lights we saw were over Biscay a ship had a red port light on the bow, a red light on the starboard bow, and a huge red light on the stern. Another one was a motor boat with a red light on the port bow, green on the starboard bow and no white light on the stern.

The red over green, fitted where they can best be seen are in addition to bow lights and a stern light. The rules are very clear. Checkkit out. Rule 25.