AIS now primary collision avoidance tool - Radar and Visual second?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dom
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Notwithstanding the fact that this article has some attributes of an April 1st, not a Jan 1st story and that the Royal Navy officer in question may have been somewhat misquoted.

Notwithstanding the fact that what he describes is inconsistent with the internal procedures of major shipping companies.

And setting aside the idiosyncrasies of UK Border Force operations.

My instinct is that there may nevertheless be a grain of truth to his comments. As the ex-captain of HMS Endurance (1991 to its sad end in 2008) Tom Sharpe is an immensely experienced seaman. If he speak to an unstoppable if insidious trend towards increased reliance on AIS, then this is a major issue for small craft skippers engaging in even modest cross-Channel excursions.

And to be fair, how many of us even keep the radar running all the time, even crossing shipping lanes?
 
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dom said:
My instinct is that there may nevertheless be a grain of truth to this story. As the ex-captain of HMS Endurance (1991 to its sad end in 2008) Tom Sharpe is an immensely experienced seaman. If his comments speak to an unstoppable trend towards increased reliance on AIS, then this is a major issue for small craft skippers engaging in even modest cross-Channel excursions.
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True, but not a new story. 'Ships not keeping a good visual watch', or at least yottie's perception that ships don't keep a good lookout has been a concern forever, it's not a new problem associated with AIS.

Yotties have been going on the assumption that we haven't been seen leisure sailing began.
 
lw395 said:
Another navy idiot.
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Evidently you feel your seamanship and judgement are so vastly superior to those of the CO of HMS Endurance that you feel confident enough to call him an idiot!

That being so I am confident enough in my judgement to call you an ignorant, arrogant idiot.
 
dom said:
My instinct is that there may nevertheless be a grain of truth to his comments.
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Certainly. There's an excellent example in an accident report (I haven't been able to find it on the MAIB site, so it might have been a different source such as CHIRP) where the OOW ignored an obvious radar return (VDR recorded radar data, so the investigators could see just how obvious) and the view out of the window (clear night, other vessel nav lights working properly) because he spent his whole watch slumped in one chair in front of an ECDIS screen with chart and AIS overlaid and no other source. Maybe not common, but it certainly happens.

Pete
 
Old Bumbulum said:
Evidently you feel your seamanship and judgement are so vastly superior to those of the CO of HMS Endurance that you feel confident enough to call him an idiot!

That being so I am confident enough in my judgement to call you an ignorant, arrogant idiot.
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I've met a lot of services people. Many of them are idiots. They're trained to be.
As for Endurance, it was nearly lost in circumstances where according to wikipedia (to stick to polite versions in the public domain), 'clarity of engineering command had been lost'.
That's something I don't have on my CV.

Old failures from the senile service should STFU.
 
GHA said:
Until we got ais receivers and now know nearly all of them are very well behaved :)
Somehow very satisfying watching a ship nudge course many miles away to give you almost exactly 1Nm CPA.
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Agree, although I've never spotted the resulting CPA being a nice round number, I'll watch for that in future. ...also to nice to see traffic slow down in fog, something else I (like many yotties) thought they didn't do until AIS came along. (Of course, some don't!)
 
Mark-1 said:
Agree, although I've never spotted the resulting CPA being a nice round number, I'll watch for that in future. .
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Not every day but in the channel seen it a few times, and way offshore often they'll dogleg to give you more searoom before they even appear over the horizon. That's all from radar apparently, steel boat so good return and no AIS transmit. Really should get one... :)

From the OP "because nobody looks out the window." doesn't really hold up , the big boys by and large seem very professional and good at their jobs :cool:
It's yachties & fishing boats that are more likely to be unpredictable ;)
 
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lw395, Old Bumbulum, come on guys, let's start the new year off with some goodwill and politeness on the forum. Thank heavens for posters like dom, GHA and prv; interesting comments worth discussing.
For my pennyworth on the subject (that's all it is worth!) ever since a fraught crossing of the North Sea in fog with only AIS receiver, we have operated with AIS receive and transmit. The AIS picture is on a chartplotter in front of the helmsman as well as another down below. We do have radar but not being experienced it takes far longer to work out what it is reading than a quick dab on the AIS screen. So we haven't used the radar in two years. I would guess that few new yachts persons are learning how to use radar, while any fule kno how to use AIS.
Peter
 
Mark-1 said:
Agree, although I've never spotted the resulting CPA being a nice round number...
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Many large shipping co.s mandate log entries for CPAs less than specified minimums of say 0.5, 0.75, or 1nm depending on distance offshore. The the VDR (voyage data recorder) typically ensures compliance with these procedures as well as monitoring for signs of unsteadiness suggesting that a crew or crew-member may require additional training...

...which in turn most crew regard as a black mark, even worse than making PITA explanatory log entries!

Hence lots of CPAs close to 0.5, 0.75, and 1nm.
 
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lw395 said:
I've met a lot of services people. Many of them are idiots. They're trained to be.
As for Endurance, it was nearly lost in circumstances where according to wikipedia (to stick to polite versions in the public domain), 'clarity of engineering command had been lost'.
That's something I don't have on my CV.

Old failures from the senile service should STFU.
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Seems then that those people clearly treated you with the respect you deserve. ;)
 
I could say many or most members of this forum and the average yachtmaster simply sit in front of the plotter and wait for the AIS alarm to go off. Rather than keeping a weather eye out for other vessels and radar is completely obsolete.
Except it is a stupid blanket statement based on my prejudiced views with nothing to back it up. Quite simply BS.
Since I have said it here it can now be edited and quoted. I will have allowed myself to be made a fool.

Blanket statements about all.
Naval officers, Yachtmasters, merchant Ships, fishermen, relflect more on the commentators.

Grains of truth don’t justify unsubstantiated blanket statements.

Even so drive defensively. JIK.
 
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Uricanejack said:
I could say many or most members of this forum and the average yachtmaster simply sit in front of the plotter and wait for the AIS alarm to go off. Rather than keeping a weather eye out for other vessels and radar is completely obsolete.
Except it is a stupid blanket statement based on my prejudiced views with nothing to back it up. Quite simply BS.
Since I have said it here it can now be edited and quoted. I will have allowed myself to be made a fool.

Blanket statements about all.
Naval officers, Yachtmasters, merchant Ships, fishermen, relflect more on the commentators.

Grains of truth don’t justify unsubstantiated blanket statements.
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This is all true, but I'm not sure what it has to do with my post that you quoted.

Pete
 
Long before AIS the primary collision avoidance tool on merchant ships was ARPA. Rightly so in my opinion as it provides much more information about the target than visual alone which depends on estimates to get a CPA. AIS adds to this data and especially includes the MMSI number to allow a private conversation between OOWs.

Playing around in the Dover Straits is shall we say 'exciting' with all the tools operating [I have been involved in ARPA demonstrations in the area] so I would expect dealing with a RIB fool of immigrants in the main channels with AIS off may not be a good idea.
 
In over 30 years crossing the channel, I've only been caught in fog twice. I guess I'm pretty lucky as well as well prepared. If fog is forecast, I stay in port.....

My primary collision avoidance is the Mk 1 eyeball, aided by a hand bearing compass, and a healthy regard for tonnage. If I can't see the vessel, I'm not going to take avoiding action. If there's anything like a constant bearing, once the crossing vessel is within +- 45 degrees of my course, I'll alter to avoid, even if means turning around and fleeing back over my desired course.
 
Topcat47 said:
In over 30 years crossing the channel, I've only been caught in fog twice. I guess I'm pretty lucky as well as well prepared. If fog is forecast, I stay in port.....

My primary collision avoidance is the Mk 1 eyeball, aided by a hand bearing compass, and a healthy regard for tonnage. If I can't see the vessel, I'm not going to take avoiding action. If there's anything like a constant bearing, once the crossing vessel is within +- 45 degrees of my course, I'll alter to avoid, even if means turning around and fleeing back over my desired course.
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I learnt my collision avoidance skills on the bridge of a submarine with a compass and binoculars. Woe betide the OOW whose report to the CO on an approaching ship was adjudged wrong by the CO, one learnt fast and well. I learnt enough to learn to use any aid that was available to improve ones decision making at all times. Not using tools that are available is in my opinion daft and potentially dangerous
 
Old Bumbulum said:
Evidently you feel your seamanship and judgement are so vastly superior to those of the CO of HMS Endurance that you feel confident enough to call him an idiot!

That being so I am confident enough in my judgement to call you an ignorant, arrogant idiot.
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+1

It does rather seem that someone's given the ill informed idiot tree a good shake to start this year.
 
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