Aircon re-gas with R22

adey

adey

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My aircon isn’t as cold or, more importantly at the moment, not as hot on reverse cycle as it should be. I suspect it needs a gas top up but the refrigerant is R22. The system is Frigomar whose plant is about 3 miles from the boat. This is the e-mail I got from them...

To update the AC system to a new legal refrigerant it's necessary to change the chiller unit, in fact it's not possible to discharge the R22 and fill the circuit with R407C or R410a.
I may propose you the installation of a new chiller at a very special price considering that you are just using our product.
I'm talking about our art.607NT equipped with inverter compressor, herewith attached the leaflets showing the most important and useful data.
n°1 art.607NT INVERTER BLDC chiler unit (matr.BIN017NT) euro 4.320,00+VAT
You don't need to make any change in the circuits (hydraulic and electric) you have on-board now, and the unit dimensions are very similar.
http://www.frigomar.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=200&Itemid=371

Now, £4500 seems a lot to me and I’m a bit miffed that the survey mentioned a re-gas but didn’t pick up the R22 bit.
So, is £4500 about right for a chiller and do I have other options?
I don't know much about air conditioning.
 
Not sure what the availability in Italy will be, but R22 is quite OK to continue in use within a system indefinitely.

The use of R22 being banned is 'Service' use, i.e. Charging the system. Presently the only R22 available is Reclaimed (use of Virgin product R22 was banned in 2010) and re-processed is known as R22(R). The final date for legal 'Service' use is 31st December 2014.

This means any system reliant upon R22 becomes unserviceable after the end of 2014, e.g. if it leaks.

There are available several 'Direct Replacement' blends available, e.g. R417A (Du Pont MO59); R422D (MO29); R438A (MO99). Changing to one of these on a small a/c system is straightforward, but beware of other age related defects, because these tend to come to the fore when gas retrofitting.

One of these would be your best option for continued service, otherwise, yes it is time for new equipment, and in this case R410A would be better, but you have to change the whole fridge system. R407C may allow use of the evaporator units ( the bit inside the cooler box).

The procedure for a gas retrofit is ...

1 Decant and properly dispose of the systems residual R22 (the grades won't mix).

2 Change the oil and in line drier, if feasible so to do. On small hermetic compressors this may not be possible.

3 Pressure test, especially as you have reported a system light on charge. No point in charging a system that leaks, not only is it illegal, it will continue to leak.

4 Re- charge with the new refrigerant, noting that the recharge will likely need less mass of refrigerant (varies 65-95% of original charge).

5 Adjust the TEVv to correct the operating superheat.

R407C might work, but to use this you would first have to undertake several full oil changes from mineral base to Polyolester base oil of the original viscosity, typically ISO 32 or 68, whilst the system is still on R22. As mentioned this may just not be possible on a small hermetic compressor.

R410A is a completely different blend and is totally unsuitable for an R22 system.

The above us certainly valid in the UK, and as far as I am aware throughout the EU, but our Continental Cousins do not always adhere so rigidly to the Laws of the EU, so I would not be surprised to find R22 available commercially in Italy long after the final date. Can't see too many bona fide firms in the UK wanting any involvement with illegal R22 use after the end of next year.
 
R22 is no longer available as a virgin refrigerant, however it is still available as a reclaimed / cleaned refrigerant and will be available untill the end of 2014, there are also several " drop-in" refrigerants for r22 systems depending on the application/temperature range of the system, these refrigerants will be available long after 2014.
The refrigerants mentioned in your email are not R22 drop-in's, they are refrigerants manufactures use as an alternative to R22 and cannot be used in any R22 system as they are not compatible with the mineral oil used in R22 systems.

The benefits of reclaimed r22(which I use every day ) is system top ups can be carried out after pressure testing.
The benefits of a drop-in is its cheaper and more environmentally friendly, with drop in replacements all R22 must be reclaimed from the system before charging with the drop-in.
I would think about contacting a local air-con / refrigeration company as we use both refrigerants all the time, I contacted a Portugese a/c company because I have the same problem on my boat in portugal and was quoted €160 to reclam any r22, pressure test systems ( x2 ) vac out systems and recharged with a drop in refrigerant.
Hope this helps
Ade-the-Fridge
 
Du Pont Isceon MO49 (R413A) and also Elf Atochem FX56 (R409A) were intended to drop in for R12, but I'm not sure if these are still available. R12 went in 1997. FX56 includes R22 in the blend mix so is itself due to go next year.

Climalife in Bristol are main agents for Du Pont, and these should also be available fro HRP wholesalers, but most are sold in minimum 3 kg cylinders.

However, R134a is virtually the same characteristic, but to use R134a several oil changes to POE grade oil would be needed. This would be the difficult bit on a small system, especially if hermetically constructed.
 
134a is on run out in auto air cons. It should have been replaced by 1234yf, also from DuPont or Honeywell. However, there were supply issues, now resolved. Apologies if this is yesterday's news, but the changes will drive pricing rises in marine use, due to volumes.
 
rafiki_ said:
134a is on run out in auto air cons. It should have been replaced by 1234yf, also from DuPont or Honeywell. However, there were supply issues, now resolved. Apologies if this is yesterday's news, but the changes will drive pricing rises in marine use, due to volumes.
Click to expand...

I apologise if this thread is becoming one for the lounge. 1234YF is one if the newer HFOs intended to replace HFCs. However, these are currently only required for new car models introduced from I think 2012, but due to production limitations introduction rules on 1234YF have been delayed. The legislation is not extended to other modes of transport yet, nor existing car models in production.

However HFOs have a specific disadvantage inasmuch as they are flammable and as yet there are no dates yet established for phase out of HFCs, although at a recent RAC industry seminar the F Gas Directive review that governs these rules is not yet agreed in the EU, but Industry thoughts are that HFCs will be largely gone by 2030.

There are no magic bullets left to effectively replace the HFCs that offer similar characteristics - non toxic, non flammable, so what will be left in 15 or so years - who knows. This won't just affect boats, but all refrigeration and air conditioning (that is at some stage of its production virtually everything you eat).

However, for boats the specific issue will likely be flammability.

All R400 series blended refrigerants are largely based on R134a. So if R134a goes, so does everything based upon it - R404A, R407C, R410A, etc.
 
I'm grateful for the info. I suspect that Frigomar are only interested in flogging me their latest chiller.
I'm back in Italy in a few days so I'll ask around if anyone has R22 or a drop in.
As a matter of interest, anyone know what these dials do?
 

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superheat6k said:
I apologise if this thread is becoming one for the lounge. 1234YF is one if the newer HFOs intended to replace HFCs. However, these are currently only required for new car models introduced from I think 2012, but due to production limitations introduction rules on 1234YF have been delayed. The legislation is not extended to other modes of transport yet, nor existing car models in production.

However HFOs have a specific disadvantage inasmuch as they are flammable and as yet there are no dates yet established for phase out of HFCs, although at a recent RAC industry seminar the F Gas Directive review that governs these rules is not yet agreed in the EU, but Industry thoughts are that HFCs will be largely gone by 2030.

There are no magic bullets left to effectively replace the HFCs that offer similar characteristics - non toxic, non flammable, so what will be left in 15 or so years - who knows. This won't just affect boats, but all refrigeration and air conditioning (that is at some stage of its production virtually everything you eat).

However, for boats the specific issue will likely be flammability.

All R400 series blended refrigerants are largely based on R134a. So if R134a goes, so does everything based upon it - R404A, R407C, R410A, etc.
Click to expand...
Daimler has raised flammability of 1234yf as an issue, however, while it it is slightly more flammable than 134a, compared to the other fluids in the engine bay, gasoline, or diesel, or even brake fluid, antifreeze, or power steering fluid, 1234yf flammability is way down the order. This really is a non issue. I have seen all the crash test videos.
 
rafiki_ said:
Daimler has raised flammability of 1234yf as an issue, however, while it it is slightly more flammable than 134a, compared to the other fluids in the engine bay, gasoline, or diesel, or even brake fluid, antifreeze, or power steering fluid, 1234yf flammability is way down the order. This really is a non issue. I have seen all the crash test videos.
Click to expand...
Generally I would agree as far as automotive use is concerned. But the industry's concern will be for use of a flammable refrigerant for enclosed spaces. Presently there are severe restrictions in place under other laws, and certainly the way ahead is not at all clear.

Firms like my own are presently looking at pilot projects for larger kit to use HFOs, but this would be for outdoor plant. HFOs really are in their infancy presently, and not even the larger manufacturers have developed any commercially available smaller A/C kit using non HFCs.
 
Thank you all!
Well done, all the participants.

In 5 minutes I learned an awful lot about air-con and the issues involved.

No one was rude to anyone and they shared knowledge and wisdom. The way things should be.
 
Hi,
I can't read the legends above each thermostat, but
they all look like standard electromechanical thermostats common in many refrigeration systems, the two above each other on the LHS look like chiller temperature thermostats with the two on the RHS could be defrost termination thermostat as they look like they have a much larger temperature range. There will be capillary tubes attached to the back of them, if you can follow these capillary's and locate where they terminate, this will give you a better idea what they are controlling the temperature of, failing that a look at a wiring diagram should tell you.
 
Thanks for that.
I never did conclude this thread but basically, I told them 4,500 was way too much so they decided that it IS possible to replace the gas after all :rolleyes:

This is the e-mail...

Hi Adrian, if you want we are able to come in Chiavari this afternoon to fill the chiller unit with a replacement fluid for R22.
We are not sure about the old refrigerant present inside the circuit, for this reason, to avoid blend, our suggestion is to refill completely the unit with the new refrigerant (2,9kg needed).
....
n°2,9 kg refrigerant euro 53,00/kg = 153.70+VAT
n°2h manpower (including transfer) euro 45/h = 90,00+VAT
Total euro 243,70+VAT (22%) = euro 297,31 (VAT included)

They don't say exactly what refrigerant they intend to use. Not sure if it's recycled R22 or a drop-in.
I didn't get it done because I didn't pick up the e-mail in time and flew home before they were able to come.
I'll get it done in the new year.
 
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